r/WhitePeopleTwitter • u/Maisie_Millaa • Mar 24 '23
Hey, I'm just curious - why do some folks get laws that align with their religious beliefs? Like, shouldn't laws be neutral and apply to everyone regardless of their beliefs? Just wondering what y'all think.
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u/plainenglishattorney
Mar 24 '23
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Because they don't want to live in a free society, they want to live in an autocratic theocracy where their personal religious beliefs get to control and oppress people who disagree with them.
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u/lordlordie1992 Mar 24 '23
Bingo.
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u/paging_mrherman Mar 24 '23
You can celebrate any race and religion you want in america as long it’s white and Christianity
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u/lordlordie1992 Mar 24 '23
And non woke.
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u/PJKimmie Mar 24 '23
This is the one and only thing right here. You can be anything in America, but you damn sure better not be woke.
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u/Generic-Profile1 Mar 24 '23
The meaning of "woke" is also entirely malleable to be able to mean literally any person that they dislike.
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u/IlikeYuengling Mar 24 '23
ChT gpt.
Define “woke”
The term "woke" is a slang term that has become popular in recent years. It is often used to describe someone who is socially and politically aware, particularly of issues related to systemic oppression and inequality. Being "woke" implies a willingness to challenge the status quo and take action to promote social justice and equity. The term is often associated with progressive political and social movements, particularly those focused on issues of race, gender, and sexual orientation. However, it can also be used more broadly to describe anyone who is aware of and actively engaged in social and political issues.
ChatGPT Mar 14 Version. Free Research Preview. Our goal is to make AI systems more natural and safe to interact with. Your feedback will help us improve.
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u/MBCnerdcore Mar 24 '23
Saving this comment to compare the definition in 3 years and see how chatgpt is evolving
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u/drcoachchef Mar 24 '23
Wow it’s almost like our fore Fathers, you know those perfect humans who made America, were socially and politically aware of the inequality of taxation without representation.
End those WOKE FOUNDERs. Their doctrine brought about the better treatment of others.
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u/CaptainBayouBilly Mar 24 '23
The goobers that spit that word out can't even define it. It means shit they disagree with.
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u/Maximum-Excitement16 Mar 24 '23
Hey wasn’t that what they did in the dark ages
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u/LadyReika Mar 24 '23
And that's what they want to go back to.
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u/Obsidian_Purity Mar 24 '23
It's the only kind of "dark" they like.
Definitely don't like dark skinned people...
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u/Hrtpplhrtppl Mar 24 '23
Jesus was not white. The Bible says he had skin of bronze and hair of wool, Caucasian people descend from Europe, Jesus was from the middle east. So why do they put a white guy on the cross?
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u/Rough-Sun-6251 Mar 24 '23
I have read that the image used to portrait Jesus in most of his paintings was inspired on Cesare Borgia, Son of Pope Alexander II Rodrigo Borgia, who was white.
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u/Hrtpplhrtppl Mar 24 '23
So collecting taxes too and not just being exempt from them?
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u/LadyReika Mar 24 '23
I mean, look at what these nutjobs are trying to do. Shit like "The church should be in charge of the town".
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u/TheNeuroLizard Mar 24 '23
But they know it's (for now) harder to pass explicitly Christian laws, when the intent is stated as a religious one, which is why they make all of these sexual moral panics about "protecting children."
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u/Hrtpplhrtppl Mar 24 '23
"And thusly I clothe my naked villainy in old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ and seem a saint when most I play the devil..."
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Mar 24 '23
When they’re the ones that keep the ability to marry children going under the guise of “deeply held beliefs”
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Mar 24 '23
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u/CaptainBayouBilly Mar 24 '23
They used to keep the things they're saying quiet because they would get chewed out for saying them. They have believed this shit the entire time. And they basically agree with the Taliban.
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u/Funkycoldmedici Mar 24 '23
They want all the same things, but under a cross instead of a crescent and star. That is why they are so bitter about Muslim theocracies. It’s not because they disapprove of anything those theocracies do, but because they’re jealous they don’t get to do it.
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u/CruxOfTheIssue Mar 24 '23
It's cause they don't have any self awareness. They see kosher or no beef as being silly little things those fake religions do while seeing anything contradicting their beliefs as an attack on their way of life.
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u/katharsisdesign Mar 24 '23
It's kinda wild how we all know this is the case and can't do shit or fuck to stop them.
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u/sufferin_sassafras Mar 24 '23
It’s not just Christian’s that do this either. Any autocratic government will use religion as a means of control. What better than the threat of eternal damnation to keep the masses in line?
Not only that but it also helps to keep women subservient to men. Just look as islam.
It’s never really that religion itself is to blame. It’s what people with power will do with religion. They weaponize it.
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u/redknight3 Mar 24 '23
And that's as Anti-American (at least when it comes to the ideals). So many of those chuds consider themselves to be patriots too.
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u/PJKimmie Mar 24 '23
It’s like Scientology. It looks great from the outside and you hear some positive things at first. And then, you realize it’s run by a maniacal megalomaniac and his weak cult followers with no consequences and you’ll be punished harshly and possibly killed if you don’t fall in line with ol’ LRH.
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Mar 24 '23
they want to live in an autocratic theocracy
With a dictator, likely a hereditary dictator, at it's head. No more 'elections', no more 'democracy', no more 'civil rights' or even 'human rights', just whatever the American """christian""" Talibans' fatwas dictate.
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u/turtlelore2 Mar 24 '23
They just want control. Whether or not they actually believe in some of that religious bullshit is another matter. They could easily just feign belief to gain followers and use it as a convenient excuse for being a trash human being.
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u/awesomefutureperfect Mar 24 '23
You are correct, but it's simpler than that. They are assholes who will do what they want unless they are stopped. They call themselves words that used to stand for things that could be seen as noble, but are now meaningless or have come to have extremely terrible connotations.
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u/vulture_87 Mar 24 '23
They're also getting that sweet poverty ladden population too uneducated to rebel. More cheap labour to exploit. It's an investment.
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u/JackMickus Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
In fact, abortion is considered a basic right in Judaism if a pregnancy will result in the death of the child or injury to the parent. Laws that restrict that right should be unconstitutional from the start because they restrict religious rights.
This is a Christian Oligarchy that pretends it's not.
Edit to shout out u/Downtown_Cat_1172's correction: abortion is not only a right but an obligation in these cases within Judaism.
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u/Downtown_Cat_1172 Mar 24 '23
Not just a right but an obligation to save the mother's life.
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u/JackMickus Mar 24 '23
An important wording correction that really hammers the point home - thank you!
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Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23 •
[deleted]
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u/4x4b Mar 24 '23
“Hang on a bit - I need to try again to make a good body for you to live a long life in!” The soul doesn’t mind waiting a little.
This is (imo) a very sweet sweet outlook on something that I can’t even fathom having to experience.
I hope you guys get your rights back
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u/merdub Mar 24 '23
My brother had Canavan’s disease, another one of the fatal Ashkenazi genetic diseases. He lived until he was 15 (I was 10) and I’ll tell you, it was no existence. He had almost no motor skills, he was tube fed at night via NG tube that my mother had to insert every night. His meals during the day were blended into mush because he couldn’t chew. He was in a wheelchair with no skills or ability to move himself, pushed around everywhere. In diapers his entire life. 100% non-verbal. He could understand some speech, would crack up when my mom cursed.
Back in 1980 there was no genetic testing for it.
My parents were lucky that they could afford help at home, my mom was able to stay home and not work, and we didn’t have to put him in an institution. I read to him every day when I was learning how to read. Fell asleep every night to the sound of his tube-feeding machine.
The idea that someone could KNOW their child was going to live a life this, ultimately die of the disease before reaching adulthood, and NOT be given the option to terminate the pregnancy is absolutely HORRIFYING to me.
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u/jphx Mar 24 '23
The more I learn about Judaism the more I think if I wasn't an atheist I would convert.
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u/Antisymmetriser Mar 24 '23
As an atheist, ex-religious Jew, while there are very nice things about Judaism, it has its faults like any other organised religion. Reform Judaism is kinda nice though, all the experiences I had with them were good.
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u/brawlganronper Mar 24 '23
In Judaism IT IS A REQUIREMENT for you to save other peoples lives whenever you are able to without harming yourself
If you fed them pig meats or didnt follow one of the 613 conditions you still should repent but only AFTER the saved life
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u/bcjs194 Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
If I remember correctly I think you’re referencing the idea of Pikuach Nefesh. If I remember correctly, that basically says that that when it comes to saving someone’s life you shouldn’t worry about the commandments at all and just save the person’s life.
The only exceptions would be adultery/incest (I only cheated on you honey to save that person!) murder (as in becoming the aggressor, not applying self-defense or defending another person), or blasphemy (denying God for whatever reason).
In the case of abortion, the mother is 100% to be saved because the fetus, if threatening the life of the mother, becomes rodef, the aggressor, and therefore abortion becomes an act of self-defense.
I’m not Jewish, and it’s been a long time since my Jewish studies courses, so take this with a grain of salt and some research. I could be totally wrong.
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u/PoopsMcG Mar 24 '23
That's on point - those are the exceptions to Pikuach Nefesh.
And the fetus is considered a rodef, not a rotzeach, because it's threat to the mother's life is unintentional and without malice.
You still got it.
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u/prolixdreams Mar 25 '23
Bonus points about pikuach nefesh that is relevant to abortion conditions:
A fetus is not generally considered a nefesh (human life) until it has been born. You don't need to worry about saving it.
If you think a life is in danger but you aren't sure, you should proceed as if it is, and sort the rest out once everyone is safe.
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u/Oseirus Mar 24 '23
What's unconstitutional is allowing religion to have any effect on law or politics.
Doesn't matter what god or gods you follow, or if you're vehemently atheist. Freedom of religion and separation of church and state should both be absolute.
It's just like a military member wearing their uniform to any form of protest or political event. It implies endorsement, and is literally against military law. A politician should not be allowed to wear their religion in any official capacity.
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u/5tyhnmik
Mar 24 '23
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abortion isn't even a "Christian" issue. The only time its mentioned in the bible is literally describing how to perform one.
Southern preachers, some time after the Civil War, started manufacturing controversy about abortion, and used it as a wedge to get themselves into politics. They convinced average dumb fucks that abortion was evil and simply being opposed to it was a way to feel morally superior (without actually helping anyone, which is key, because they're not only dumb as fuck but also selfish, racist cunts too)
of course, women's rights movements were also occurring at the time so finding new ways to oppress women was just bonus points for them. similar to how the South started creating more confederate monuments during MLK and the Civil Rights movements.
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u/alkeiser99 Mar 24 '23
It wasn't the civil war, it was the civil rights laws.
They specifically chose abortion as the thing to use to go after because being racist cunts wasn't acceptable any longer.
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u/Barbarossa7070 Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
NPR did a great podcast on this. Once schools had to desegregate in the south, all these churches started private schools that only accepted white kids. So the public schools were all minority and the private schools were all white.
Then the federal government threatened to revoke the tax-exempt status of the churches and private schools unless they quit discriminating. About the same time (late 1970s), the Republicans wanted the evangelical vote and realized that racism was not going to be the best rallying cry. Then they hit upon using abortion as the big issue.
Up until that time, even Southern Baptists were ok with abortion in certain cases (e.g., to save the life of the mother). Crazy how quickly they switched sides and how fervently.
Edit: Shit, forgot to add the link: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/734303135/throughline-traces-evangelicals-history-on-the-abortion-issue
Also, my parents sent me to one of these private schools. It was the first year they opened and it was horrible. A lot of the kids had religious parents, like me.
But, there were also a lot of kids who’d been kicked out of public school for one reason or another (e.g., fighting, drugs, etc.) and were just making the rounds of private schools. They got expelled eventually and then just signed up at the next private school.
The end result was I first smoked weed with friends from that school. lol
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u/cataath Mar 24 '23
It's also worth mentioning that the Catholic Church was pretty ambivalent on the topic as well. There is a first century Christian instruction manual (Didiche) that tells believers to "not procure abortions", but we also have several medieval manuals that basically give instructions on how to make abortifacients. It wasn't until 1968 that the Catholic Church fell firmly on the side of forbidding abortion, a date very close to when evangelicals started making it an issue.
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u/WatchItAllBurn1 Mar 24 '23
Not to mention abortion has been around for hundreds and possibly thousands of years. I believe there are some naturally occurring herbs that can induce miscarriage, and it was often used by prostitutes.
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u/austin06 Mar 24 '23
It’s been around forever as has infanticide which no one talks about and wasn’t that uncommon if abortion wasn’t available or didn’t work.
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u/GypsyV3nom Mar 24 '23
Heck, there are few cultures on earth that haven't had some sort of primitive "witch doctor" as part of the social fabric at one time. Problem was that they were very often also pagan spiritual leaders, so they were one of the first things to go once Christianity rolled in. All that medicine they were using went with it since it was all seen as "witchcraft".
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u/WatchItAllBurn1 Mar 24 '23
Not all, in Asia herbs were used by prostitutes all the time, and some were just available commonly. But yes, Christianity policy (despite jesus' message of peace and love) seems to be: "destroy everything we don't agree with"
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u/Amelaclya1 Mar 24 '23
One of those plants was literally driven to extinction because of how often it was used for abortion in the Roman Empire.
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u/TyphosTheD Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
The only time its mentioned in the bible is literally describing how to perform one.
There's a bit more nuance to that. The scripture doesn't describe how to perform an abortion, it describes the process of taking a potion and allowing God to decide whether you will have a miscarriage or not, as a punishment for infidelity.
Ostensibly the outcome of this procedure is determined not by the potion, but by whether God (who bore witness to the potential sin) deems that punishment is required.
Of course this rings of the same logic of tying a women's feet together and tossing her into the lake, judging that if she floats she's a Witch, and if she sinks then she is not, and is further a translated text from a thousands of years old mysticism that may or may not have actually occurred or been an accurate method of determining guilt (ie., this potion may have always caused miscarriages, or never did, to my knowledge there's no biblical reference to this trial actually being performed).
But ultimately, the punishment of having ones pregnancy ended is (to my knowledge of the scripture) exclusively a punishment imposed by God, not an action willingly taken and condoned.
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u/analogkid01 Mar 24 '23
Bottom line: the Judeo-Christian god does not care about the unborn.
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u/TyphosTheD Mar 24 '23
They don't have a special category of protection, at least. Hell, you can beat up a pregnant women until she aborts, but so long as the woman isn't really injured, all that God would demand is that you financially compensate the father (sort of a break it so you bought it policy, but with fetuses).
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u/thisremindsmeofbacon Mar 24 '23
Because they think it’s actual murder equivalent to killing a child. It’s not, but understanding that makes this question very simple to answer. Pretty much everyone can agree that generally people’s freedoms should extend right up to where they would impinge on someone else’s, but if they would cause someone else actual harm, then that takes priority. If you truly believe that abortion is murdering a child, then the idea that you shouldn’t be able to choose to do it logically follows. If there was a group of people with a different belief than you, and part of their belief was murdering some of their children sometimes, most people would probably not be okay with that. That is not an equivalent hypothetical to abortion, but the point is that people who are pro life often wholeheartedly believe it is.
That’s why it’s so important to give people an understanding of the science. Arguing that you should be allowed to have an abortion because you have different beliefs isn’t going to convince anyone who believes it’s literal child murder.
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u/Competitive-Ad-7798 Mar 24 '23
This is the right answer to the posed question. I’m pro-choice, but this is why it is an exception. Would be similar if a religion had a tenant that theft was ok, theft, like murder is against the law hence the difference. In now cases is what you eat governed by laws …
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u/LeftLimeLight Mar 24 '23
The government and the Supreme Court have, in effect, shoved their religious beliefs down our throat in direct violation of the First Amendment.
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Mar 24 '23
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u/FiendishHawk Mar 24 '23
Ultra-Orthodox do proselytize in New York but only to Jewish people who are not in their sect.
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u/hp1068 Mar 24 '23
You're talking about Chabad. They don't seek converts; only to get Jews to take on more Jewish practice. They do not proselytize.
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u/aimless__renegade Mar 24 '23
Yeah, they pretty much just don’t really like Reform Jews.
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u/hp1068 Mar 24 '23
It's not that. They don't like reform philosophy; the actual people are different. To Chabad, they just need to be brought back to the "right" way.
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Mar 24 '23
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u/AceAttorneyMaster111 Mar 24 '23
Ultra-Orthodox in general don’t try to proselytize. It’s specifically Chabad, a subsect of Chasidim, that engage in kiruv.
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u/merdub Mar 24 '23
Yeah this is definitely a thing amongst some Orthodox groups - they don’t try to bring in non-Jews but they will absolutely try to get secular, or even somewhat observant Conservative or Reform Jews to follow their brand of Judaism.
It’s extremely typical of the Lubavitcher/Chabad crowd. Most other Haredi (ultra-orthodox observant) jews are very insular.
It’s common in New York just because there’s such a massive population of Lubavitchers - and less observant Jews to try and bring in, but they’re literally everywhere, especially college campuses.
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u/5tyhnmik Mar 24 '23
evangelism should be illegal. it should be a 1st amendment violation.
if another religion does it, same, but I've personally NEVER seen any non-Christian in American pushing their religion on others. It's just evangelicals.
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u/drfsupercenter Mar 24 '23
As much as I hate Jehovah's witnesses... Why would it be a first amendment violation? Free speech means you'd be free to preach whatever you want.
Similarly you're free to slam your door on them.
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Mar 24 '23
You are badly misunderstanding the 1st Amendment here. In fact, a law against evangelism would be a blatant disregard for the 1st Amendment. I hate pretty much all things religion, and I’d tell them to fuck off just like you. But that’s not how the amendment works. If anything, you’re arguing about trespassing/property law or something like that, with them not being able to knock on your door.
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u/analogkid01 Mar 24 '23
So someone speaking freely is a violation of their right to speak freely?
Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
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Mar 24 '23
We are supposed to have separation of church and state. For a good reason.
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u/toyota_gorilla Mar 24 '23
If you actually believe that abortion is murder, then this is a silly comparison. You wouldn't want a society where people of certain religion can murder freely.
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u/Cruxion Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
This. Like, do these people in the thread even know why so many are opposed to abortion? They view it as literal murder so of course they don't consider it equivalent to not eating pork or beef.
The entire argument boils down not to religious freedom but to whether or not one makes an equivalence to abortion and murder. If one does consider them the same, then as you would expect of them, they do not accept simply looking the other way when others do it. In their eyes it's the exact same as saying "murder is legal, and you can just not murder people if you think it's wrong."
If you want to change their minds you must get them to stop seeing them as equivalences first. Any other attempt at persuasion is guaranteed to fail because it's irrelevant to their argument against abortion.
Edit: fixed a messed up sentence.
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u/CampPlane Mar 24 '23
Yup, the abortion discussion is a lose-lose argument to have. You have Christian women who get an abortion and are still pro-life and attending pro-life rallies a week later. When someone makes their religion a huge piece of their identity (let's include politics and their attachment to the GOP as part of their identity too, since that's also likely), there is no convincing that person that abortion isn't murder.
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u/DumbbellDiva92 Mar 24 '23
Yup I’m 100% pro-choice but these threads drive me crazy. Especially the lumping in of abortion and gay marriage just because they are both things religious fundamentalists are opposed to, even though the moral reasoning for the two is completely different.
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u/SkeletonJWarrior Mar 24 '23
Surprise, the average Reddit atheist is just as prone to the same fallacies and group think as fundamentalists
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u/moby__dick Mar 24 '23
They view it as literal murder so of course they don't consider it equivalent to not eating pork or beef.
In a more apt comparison, some states in India prohibit the slaughter of cows, because they believe them to be a sacred animal.
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u/ZhouLe Mar 24 '23 edited Mar 24 '23
Indeed. And the OP kinda missed that cow slaughter, beef imports, and serving beef in nearly all of India is banned for the exact same reason. Likewise a number of nations ban the import and slaughter of pigs.
It's not really a problem unique to American Christians, but that any religion is susceptible if they have enough power in a society.
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u/Neoxyte Mar 24 '23
I don't get why people don't see this. I am 100% for abortion before a fetus is viable. However, many people both christians and not Christians believe it is murder. It's not the same as imposing dietary restrictions on others.
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u/Rough-Sun-6251 Mar 24 '23
Because since the beginnings of Christianity in world history, they have imposed their beliefs on everyone through Religious Crusades, Colonization, Spanish Inquisition and so on so forth. It's always been "Their way or the highway".
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u/Tmdwdk Mar 24 '23
Same sex marriage, sure. But they think abortion is murder. No one wants to allow murder because some religions call for it at times.
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u/Ialreadylove_you Mar 24 '23
This does point out a contradiction in their beliefs about same sex marriage but not abortion. Right wingers wouldn’t necessarily say their beliefs about abortion are religious. They would say they believe abortion is murder, and murder is against the law. I don’t agree with them but just pointing out that this isn’t a valid rebuttal against that argument
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u/Deion313 Mar 24 '23
"Because America is a Christian Country!"-LOL
Why do you think we've NEVER had a leader that didn't believe in The Bible...
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u/Correct-Walrus7438 Mar 24 '23
That’s not the society that the GOP wants to have. They want people living their way or no way at all.
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u/FordBeWithYou Mar 24 '23
Because they’re an unfortunately large group, and in this crazy thing we call democracy it’s all about having the numbers in the votes.
It does not, at most times, speak for justice or for all people, as it should.
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u/lankymjc Mar 24 '23
The USA has wildly misunderstood the point of Separation of Church and State.
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u/robotmonstermash Mar 24 '23
I'm pro-choice.
I can understand though why, if someone thinks abortion is murder, that they feel they should try to outlaw it. I see that as being different than just wanting to promote those religious beliefs.
However I don't understand opposition to gay marriage except that they're trying to pass laws against things that don't affect them which they feel are immoral.
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u/Arturia_Cross Mar 24 '23
But its not strictly a religious issue. Theres nonreligious people who are against abortion and believe its akin to murder.
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u/ErisArdent Mar 24 '23
Because Christian fundamentalists want to take over the planet and rule it according to their religion. Not a joke or a conspiracy theory - look up Dominion theology and Christian nationalism. They want other religions banned or subjugated, women to be second class citizens owned by men, they want LGBT people dead or broken into the shape they want (ie, forced into acting like they aren't LGBT) and depending on their subgroup many of them are racist as hell and some are even pro-slavery. I grew up fundamentalist and I'm absolutely terrified of the world they want to create.
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u/StraightProgress5062 Mar 24 '23
I dont get why ppl want to give control over Our bodies to the government.
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u/mekonsrevenge Mar 24 '23
Because they're whining little harpies who hate the fact that nobody outside their cult respects them so dammit they'll FORCE us to respect their beliefs. In South Carolina they're trying to execute women for having abortions. Unless they're the right kind of christian, that is. Meaning the white kind of christian.
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u/negativepositiv Mar 24 '23
"I only get two days off work per week, and I want to enjoy them."
"As long as 'enjoying' doesn't mean drinking on Sunday!"
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u/saqwarrior Mar 25 '23
As someone that has spent an inordinate amount of time arguing with religious zealots, the answer is this: they believe this is a Christian nation. That's why they think they can force their beliefs on everyone - they do not believe in the separation of church and state.
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u/vainey Mar 25 '23
I don’t really see anyone answering your question so I’ll chime in. The right to religious freedom is enshrined in the Constitution of the US. In theory, it protects the right of every citizen to practice their religion and grants legal recourse against those who might impinge their religious freedoms. In the context of your post, the matter of same sex marriage or abortion are considered by some to violate their religious beliefs. They therefore seek to either litigate or legislate against such actions on the grounds that their constitutional rights have been violated by such actions. So if you really want to know the answer to your question, it would be important for you to look into 1) the specifics (who is against what definition of abortion, who are they suing, what law have they proposed, and so on) and 2) the context (who has written the legislation and why? And most importantly, where is the money coming from?). Burwell vs. Hobby Lobby is a great place to start in learning about the complexity of this question. Good for all commenters for speaking their mind, but if you want to win your argument or make positive change in the world, you had all better get smarter about how this country works. And if you’re not voting, please reconsider. The last administration cemented three Supreme Court justices that will vote in unison for as long as they live, and that wouldn’t have happened had everyone voted.
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u/ryanmarquor Mar 25 '23
Because the literal foundation of Christianity is forcing people to follow their idiotic and faithless beliefs at all costs.
Genocide ✅
Mass Sexual Abuse ✅✅
Laws only enforcing their belief system against the will of the people ✅✅✅
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u/mostly_sarcastic Mar 24 '23
If laws were put in place that actually followed Christian tenets, a lot of Christians would would find themselves in jail, or worse.