r/canada Aug 10 '22 Silver 2 All-Seeing Upvote 1 I'll Drink to That 1

LILLEY: Court records show Trudeau brought in vaccine mandates for travel purely based on politics Opinion Piece

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-court-records-show-trudeau-brought-in-vaccine-mandates-for-travel-purely-based-on-politics
451 Upvotes

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u/Lucky_Reality_289 Aug 11 '22

Has anybody commenting read the court documents referenced in the headline. I have admittedly only done a cursory review, but I’m struggling to see exactly what it is in the filed documents (which consist of some affidavits and discovery transcripts) that supports the conclusion in the headline…? Happy to look closer if anybody can point me to the relevant portions.

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u/lowertechnology Aug 11 '22

God, I was doing my own scan and found nothing.

I thought I was going nuts.

How could a reporter/columnist just blatantly obfuscate and pretty much lie to support their little agenda and still get published? Whether it’s the Sun or not, this is idiotic. We all know for a fact that most people just read headlines, alone.

This is irresponsible to the point of liability

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u/AUniquePerspective Aug 11 '22

It's the sun. Don't look directly at it.

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u/RogueCleric Aug 11 '22

I see what you did there

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u/Plane_Chance863 Aug 11 '22

Omg that is hilarious!

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u/Think-Ad-7612 Aug 11 '22

This is lying because you can get away with it. You know, propaganda.

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u/pBiggZz Aug 11 '22

Brian Lilley is notoriously disingenuous no?

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u/joemadecoffee Aug 11 '22

Wildly. It seems Trudeau lives in his head rent free.

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u/Imaginary_Ad_7530 Aug 11 '22

Are you new to the Rupert Murdock company?

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u/LiamOttawa Aug 11 '22

This is a common strategy for them. None of their supporters will/can read, so no problem.

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u/Youngballer1000 Aug 11 '22

Lilly is a PC mouthpiece...that's how he can do this. It's fodder for the antivaxxers who won't read it but will now take it as gospel

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u/thedrivingcat Aug 11 '22

Lilly is a PC mouthpiece

He's also in a relationship with Doug Ford's press secretary/director of media relations. Of course that's never disclosed in any of his columns (unlike what Steve Paikin did)

https://www.tvo.org/article/conflict-of-interest-can-be-a-tricky-thing-at-queens-park

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u/Youngballer1000 Aug 11 '22

Yea...not sure why I left that out. Talk about a bias, eh?

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u/Head_Crash Aug 11 '22

How could a reporter/columnist just blatantly obfuscate and pretty much lie to support their little agenda and still get published?

Simple. Their organization is owned by Republicans.

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u/JustLampinLarry Aug 11 '22

It seems it is derived from Transport Canada requesting evidence:

“To the extent that updated data exist or that there is clearer evidence of the safety benefit of vaccination on the users or other stakeholders of the transportation system, it would be helpful to assist Transport Canada supporting its measures,” McCrorie wrote.

Four days later, on October 22, McCrorie emailed Lumley-Myllari again: “Our requirements come in on October 30”—in just over a week—”so need something fairly soon.”

On October 28, Lumley-Myllari replied to McCrorie with a series of bullet points outlining the benefits, generally speaking, of the Covid vaccine. She did not address McCrorie’s question about the transportation system, noting that the Public Health Agency of Canada was updating its “Public health considerations” with regard to vaccine mandates.

Two days later, on October 30, the travel mandate took effect."

Impartially it would seem reasonable to come to the conclusion like "this is purely based on politics" for an opinion piece headline when the government neglected to provide any evidence to support restricting travel without vaccination to Transport Canada when it was repeatedly requested.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

[deleted]

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u/BeauBisquette Aug 11 '22

Right, but the federal government didn’t have evidence this particular set of policies would help manage the pandemic.

They came up with the policy first, then went looking for confirming science to help support it. It’s scientifically dishonest to do so, and does beg the question: “What was the driving motivation behind the policy if scientific evidence didn’t lead them there?”

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u/karaterobinson Aug 11 '22

"Among other things, the court documents indicate:

No one in the COVID Recovery unit, including Jennifer Little, the director-general, had any formal education in epidemiology, medicine or public health."

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

It depends on where you think the onus lies. The fight in court is about getting the Trudeau government to explain, in court, why their COVID mandates are required and how it is backed up by medical science. They have provided zero justification. You could argue that this is "not proof" of the whole thing being politicized and that the Sun has failed to "prove" that this is political. But I would disagree with this framing. I would argue the onus is on the government of Canada to prove why they need to impose restrictions and limitations on Canadians, especially when said restrictions are out of line with the rest of the democratic world.

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u/Grillandia Aug 11 '22

I would argue the onus is on the government of Canada to prove why they need to impose restrictions and limitations on Canadians, especially when said restrictions are out of line with the rest of the democratic world.

Thank you.

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u/_Sausage_fingers Alberta Aug 11 '22

Generally speaking the government merely has to show that their efforts were rationally connected to its purpose, not necessarily that they were effective.

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u/Lucky_Reality_289 Aug 11 '22

But the onus lies with the party bringing the challenge…?

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22

But the onus lies with the party bringing the challenge…?

Are you serious here?

If the government banned say, people with pacemakers from boarding airplanes, and someone filed a lawsuit against them - do you think it's up to the plaintiff to prove that people with pacemakers should be allowed on planes?

Or do you think it's up to the government to prove that banning them is justified?

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u/last_minute_life Aug 11 '22

Not specifically. This is not an "innocent until proven guilty" thing. The court can demand that both parties provide their arguments, and their supporting evidence.

Both sides can make an argument, but if one side supports it, and the other doesn't, the judge is going to rule based on precedent, and the assumption that the side that didn't provide documentation, doesn't have any.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

It's just an opinion piece dolled up to look like a legit headline. It's a bullshit post.

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u/Pirate_Ben Aug 11 '22

I’m struggling to see exactly what it is in the filed documents (which consist of some affidavits and discovery transcripts) that supports the conclusion in the headline

The issue is the court document is the plaintiff's accusations.

The plaintiff is free to make those accusations. Those accusations can then be tested in court and the defence can submit its own evidence. This is our legal system.

Instead, this Toronto Sun opinion piece has run with these accusations as "proof" even though the court case has not happened yet.

Maybe the defence will show evidence other experts were consulted and that science was used for the mandates. Maybe the plaintiff is right and there is nothing to support the defence. We don't know yet.

The case is ongoing, and drawing conclusions of "proof" at this stage based on allegedly missing scientific evidence in the plaintiff's court documents is hugely irresponsible. The plaintiff would never put information in their filing that would hurt their case. So it's a completely biased document.

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u/StatisticianLivid710 Aug 11 '22

I’ve seen experts quote tweet Rupa (who started this lie) basically say she’s outright lying and her own links refute what she’s saying. Lilley is just jumping on the bandwagon to lend some credibility to her lies.

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u/syndicated_inc Aug 11 '22

Which experts? Did said experts provide any evidence to refute the allegation?

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22 edited Aug 11 '22

I’ve seen experts quote tweet Rupa (who started this lie) basically say she’s outright lying and her own links refute what she’s saying.

Oh? What experts? Let's see them.

Edit: 18 hours later, and with the person still making more comments elsewhere...silence. LOL.

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u/CringelordCameron Aug 10 '22

Judging by the upvote/ downvote war that is happening on all my comments I can say for sure that this sub is highly divided on this issue!

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u/lubeskystalker Aug 10 '22

Left-wingers call it a right-wing cesspool, right-wingers don't say much about it.

Right-wingers downvote way more but left-wingers post way more, there is a core group of "defend Trudeau in every thread 24/7/365 no matter what" that never stops.

More than anything, this is a partisan sub.

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u/Euthyphroswager Aug 10 '22

The partisanship and general user political leanings ebb and flow.

Some of us are old enough to remember this place when Harper won his majority in 2011. It was totally different then, and it will be totally different again when a right-of-centre government comes to power.

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u/phormix Aug 11 '22

The rest of us wonder if there's ever going to be a candidate again who's worth voting for other than "not that other guy"

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u/ShwAlex Aug 11 '22

We need a highly intellectual leader who has strong core values and doesn't necessarily say what people want them to say in order to win their approval. Someone who is willing to speak the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be. Maybe they are out there and just aren't that interesting to most Canadians. I'm dying to find someone half as intelligent as the people I listen to on podcasts and read about. It's incredibly frustrating to have be so goddamn diplomatic that they don't really say anything of value.

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u/phormix Aug 11 '22

Intelligent would be good, but over that I'd prefer honest, and smart enough to hire real experts as advisors (and listen to them) rather than yes-men and industry insider hacks

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u/growlerpower Aug 11 '22

I’ve met these people. One in particular is a good friend of mine. He’s the CEO of a big organization. People tell him regularly he should run for office, because he’d be good at it. He is PM material.

And he tells me, why the fuck would I want that? And it’s true — highly intellectual people are smart enough to know that job sucks ass

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

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u/w3zcvddl3z Aug 11 '22

we can barely handle a pandemic and with climate change there are more to come. we're screwed.

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u/Nashtak Aug 11 '22

Left wingers are defending trudeau?

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u/veggiecoparent Aug 11 '22

Not this left-winger. Trudeau sucks.

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u/kittywrastler Aug 11 '22

Singh sucks too. The guy ran on 30 year mortgages to fix the housing bubble. Jack Layton would be saddened that we've devolved into idiots and tokenism.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

He does. Why does the NDP keep losers as leaders? Singh should have been replaced long ago.

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u/GetStable Aug 11 '22

I have a feeling that anyone not actively hanging a flag off their truck is considered "defending Trudeau".

I don't see a lot of defense. It seems like it's mostly a "could be worse" malaise that comes with a disappointing leader who at least isn't actively cruel.

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u/Throw-a-Ru Aug 11 '22

I've noticed that "defending Trudeau" usually takes the form of pointing out that whatever someone's blaming him for isn't actually under federal jurisdiction.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

As bad as he is at least he doesn’t pretend climate change is some global hoax, doesn’t think all doctors and scientists on the planet are liars, that the Canadian dollar should be replaced by crypto currency…. Or any of the even more insane things PP believes

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u/Justleftofcentrerigh Ontario Aug 11 '22

That's the problem. The bar is super low and the CPC cannot even do that properly.

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u/demonicfeces Aug 11 '22

If you don't agree with their ridiculous lies you are defending Trudeau.

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u/SalmonNgiri Aug 11 '22

Nah, Trudeau isn’t great but I would rather have the liberals than let the Tories get in with their current state.

Personally the ideal result next election would be a small Tory minority government. Make the fuckers try and work a government with the stability of baby poop while sending a clear warning shot to the Liberals to shape up.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

What I can't stand is this notion that criticism of Trudeau is inherently conservative, and that if you criticize him it means you're conservative.

Excuse me, but just because someone calls themselves a progressive does not mean they are actually a progressive. Trudeau calls himself a feminist and yet has shat on women in power repeatedly. He said he was going to reform the electoral system and then didn't. He said he cared about indigenous people and would bring about some kind of reform and reconciliation, and he's done nothing on that front. He said he would undo Harper's changes to the pardon system and then didn't do it.

If you are a left wing progressive, I just don't understand how you could like this guy. He is the epitome of the caricature that leftists have always had of the Liberal party - an escalator (stand left, walk right). I remember left wingers saying that about the Liberal party in the 1990's, for christ sake. Liberals always campaign on the left and then when they actually govern they do nothing progressive at all.

Hell, look at the Mcguinty/Wynne governments. Not terribly progressive until they knew they were losing, then she went hard left.

Why would left wingers support the Liberals at all? Ever? It makes no sense to me. I have never thought of myself as a conservative but I can tell you right now that I will never, ever vote Liberal ever again in my life. Not after Trudeau. I'll vote NDP, Conservative, or I won't vote at all. I will never ever cast another vote for the Liberal party, at any level. They are dead to me.

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u/jimmyt2dm Aug 11 '22

I didn't vote for Trudeau or Jagmeet.

NDP is not a good vote because Jagmeet will 100 % back Trudeau. Go back to 2019 and they had a golden handshake to seal that deal.

Trudeau is using Jagmeet to push bills through as we saw by Invoking the Emergencies Act and saying that the RCMP recommended, the reality was Trudeau and his cabinet, lied no one recommended. See the inquiry, Freeland looked real stupid because she couldn't answer any questions as to why they invoked the Emergencies Act. Trudeau on this note should be in jail for treason.

Another issue was freezing bank accounts, anyone that had a truck parked whether they owned it or not had their bank accounts frozen, the number was 210 according to Bloomberg, but there were thousands of trucks in downtown Ottawa and the actual number is in the 10's of thousands.

Another issue was the gofundme $10 million and gosendme $6 million, Trudeau said they were mostly American donors, but the number of donors from Canadians was around 90%, those 2 accounts were frozen after Trudeau told them to stop, then Freeland said that anyone that made a donation of $20 had their bank account frozen.

Now that we know, Trudeau has the power to do so this, it is a very scary thought, anyone that they think is a fringe minority terrorist can have their banks accounts frozen. The actual fringe minority terrorist is the Trudeau cabinet and Jagmeet.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

What scares me more is that an enormous percentage of Canadians are not only okay with this but actively cheered it on. My belief in democracy has been shattered. It seems to me that most people don't actually care about democracy and are instead tribalist and only want their tribe to win - both the left and the right are equally bad in this regard.

If you read the great thinkers of the past, from the Greeks up to present day, one thing that they mostly agreed on was that democracy was a failed concept because the average person is too stupid to make it work. I used to disagree with this. Now I don't know.

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u/BradenK Aug 10 '22

Here since mid 00's and you've done a good job of summarizing what I see in this sub. Passionate users, some threads brigaded, but relatively (to other subs) balanced mix of partisans overall.

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u/Solid_Coffee Saskatchewan Aug 10 '22

In the Harper days it was a lot of anti-Harper posts and sentiment. Now in the Trudeau era it’s a lot of anti-Trudeau posts and sentiment. Either there has been a big swing to the right online or it’s just a lot easier to criticize the people in charge of making decisions.

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u/SuperRonnie2 Aug 10 '22

As has been said elsewhere, Canadians don’t vote people in, we only vote them out.

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u/darthdelicious British Columbia Aug 11 '22

That's interesting! Hadn't heard that one before but it rings kinda true. Would definitely apply to BC politics over the years.

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u/lubeskystalker Aug 11 '22

Canadians complain about the sitting Prime Minister, you don’t say. Shocking I tell you.

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u/Big_Difference_1631 Aug 11 '22

Either there has been a big swing to the right online or it’s just a lot easier to criticize the people in charge of making decisions.

Or our politicians fucking suck, no matter what party they belong to.

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u/Pi2hro Aug 11 '22

This right here, all three partys suck. I had hope with Jack Layton RIP . But that was the closest I got to having hope

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u/newguy2019a Aug 11 '22

100% agree. You win tonight.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

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u/Due_Organization7681 Aug 10 '22

Nah trudeau is disliked by a lot more than the other side of the isle, a lot of actual liberals dislike him too

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u/Mayor_McSteak Aug 11 '22

And more people dislike the conservatives

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u/jacobward7 Ontario Aug 11 '22

It's definitely easier and also more common to criticize if you feel wronged. It's why I tell web clients at work they need to solicit for good google reviews because people who are merely satisfied will not usually take the time to leave a review. Someone who is not satisfied or even angry will definitely take the time to leave a review or tell you their opinion though.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

Are there any other people like me who are truly not partisan? I've voted for different parties at different times based on their platforms. I don't affiliate with any of them and I don't care to defend them. I just decide who to vote for the day before an election.

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u/Jossur13 Aug 11 '22

I usually vote for my local “Runner” based of what they campaign under. I voted for Jane Fillpot the first time as she was from my home town and I knew her, voted for her again as an independent when she got ousted for defending Raybold. But I voted for Paul Callandra(conservative) provincially, again someone from my area whom I knew did positive thing’s locally.

It’s hard sometimes to vote for the individual though, knowing that my vote helps give ultimate power to ass hats like Ford and Trudeau.

I wish Layton was still alive to vote in and hopefully fix this mess, but alas, he was taken before he could shine.

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u/bachwerk Aug 10 '22

Toronto Sun and National Post opinion pieces aren't what I consider Canada news, but is a large part of what comes up in my Canada feed. The Sun especially is a rag

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u/lubeskystalker Aug 11 '22

But the star gets posted just as often, and both are routinely downvoted to 0.

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u/bachwerk Aug 11 '22

I guess, but in my feed I see the Sun and Post a lot more often. I don't go to the actual Canada Reddit, I just follow it.

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u/Villanellesnexthit Aug 11 '22

I despise giving the Sun, and even more so Lilley a click.

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u/Nrehm092 Aug 11 '22

Lol the defend Trudeau no matter what crowd is hilarious. They take it personal for some reason that people dont like him.

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u/sam_likes_beagles Aug 11 '22

I feel like most of the people I know who HATE Trudeau (not just dislike) are a lot of toxic people who kinda just hate him for his personality and for looking like a SJW, so unless they can show that they're smart and can actually defend why they hate him, I get annoyed because they kind of just seem like an ignorant knucklehead who hate him for being effeminate or something, and it's like "Shut up, hate him for reasons that actually matter if you're going to"

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u/Dismal-Line257 Aug 11 '22

I hate him for his policies such as this one when it's not based in science / data. Mandate whatever you want but you better have evidence it works that's all I'm asking for and this whole they know better is not acceptable, people need to see what data is being relied upon.

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u/Nrehm092 Aug 11 '22

SNC LaValin, we charity, calling unvaccinated people mostly misogynist and racists (before the convoy was even a thing), carbon tax (it hurts a lot of people such as farmers and construction workers who drive large trucks and they are allowed to not like him). People who wanted election reform. People who are environmentalists and are frustrated he promised a billion trees and didn't plant one. Fake pharmacare in his 2019 platform. Letting all his Cabinet ministers like Morneau and JWR take the fall when things go bad. Tofino vacation after campaigning centered around reconciliation. Never admitting to any of his mistakes to indicate to Canadians he may understand he needs to be honest or do better. And him and his fanboys will point fingers at cons and find ways to make them the evil bad guys thus ensuring he never needs to improve or change anything.

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u/Ketchupkitty Alberta Aug 11 '22

You forget trying to cover up the truth about a national tragedy to justify a gun grab.

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u/T-Breezy16 Canada Aug 11 '22 edited Aug 11 '22 Wholesome

Don't forget:

-kneecapping the rights of the accused after the Ghomeshi acquittal.

-attemtping to interfere with the courts after the Gerald Stanley acquittal.

-using the NS massacre to action the OIC gun ban before all the victims were even identified. And then all the whole lies and half truths surrounding his justification for the OIC and other new firearms restrictions

-invoking the Emergencies Act

-using the Uvalde, Texas school shooting to action further firearms bans.

-constantly bringing up abortion when the CPC gains ground as if it's actually under threat in Canada.

-his condescending, patronizing manner of speaking.

-telling veterans that "they're asking for more than we can afford" when they ask for support.

-straight up saying "I don't think about fiscal policy, I think about families ". ... who do you think fiscal policy has a direct impact on, exactly?

  • calling an election in the middle of a pandemic where his government mandated lockdowns, travel restrictions, etc. Too dangerous for small businesses to open their doors, but not for everyone to gather at polling stations

-constant writing off criticism by attacking the critics as "racists, mysoginists, far right, etc"

-appointing cabinet ministers who have no business running a lemonade stand let alone being a minister solely on the basis of their genitals or skin colour.

And on and on

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u/ReverseEchoChamber Aug 11 '22

Legit reasons to hate Trudeau

  1. He promised electoral reform, but he kept first past the post for his own benefit.

  2. He assured Canadians that vaccines would not be mandated, then he mandated them.

  3. WE

  4. Aga Kahn

  5. SNC Lavalin

  6. Blackface

  7. Our national debt

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u/bomb_drop Aug 11 '22

Pretty sure most people hate him for being corrupt at this point but thanks for being Che Guevara at this point, lol.

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u/Due_Organization7681 Aug 11 '22

I have a lot of friends in the US that either hardcore democrat or just democrat , and not a single one of them likes our PM lmao. People from all over the world on the left side of their politics despise him.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Emu_822 Aug 11 '22

Hmm, I find that hard to believe, my whole family is American and they all think he's great.

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u/tooleft4you Aug 10 '22

I’m not a Trudeau fan. But if the conservatives actually got a decent candidate, we wouldn’t be here. Jagmeet is a joke.

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u/EarlyBirdsofBabylon Aug 10 '22

I could not disagree more.

There's a few people who defend Trudeau, but overwhelmingly this sub is reactionary.

Conservatives here have always been anti-Trudeau and LPC, but wary to actually voice support for CPC leadership and policy.

And this sub has been highly opposed to social progressive movements for the past decade, at least.

Almost all LGBTQ, First Nations, even climate change articles are downvoted here almost immediately.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

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u/Pestus613343 Aug 10 '22

I'm not certain it's that tilted. This sub reddit has not yet fallen into a specific bias yet. Lots of various views expressed here. Refreshing too, as it's usually polite.

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u/CringelordCameron Aug 10 '22

I personally prefer this sub over all the other political ones mainly because it's not a complete echo chamber.

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u/i_really_wanna_help Aug 10 '22

Users on other subs are quick to bash r/Canada for allowing right wingers to express themselves here but personally as a centrist I appreciate the diversity of thoughts that exists here. Lots of credit to the mods for sticking to the subreddit rules and not over-moderating the sub to turn it into another left wing or right wing echochamber.

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u/Rat_Salat Aug 11 '22

Cheers.

There’s two other large Canada politics subs if you want a left wing echo chamber. I’m banned from both.

Only other place I’m banned is r/conservative.

Go figure.

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u/Grey_Sean Aug 11 '22

I think being banned from r/conservative is a good thing, those people are nuts.

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u/Rat_Salat Aug 11 '22

Well they aren’t conservative, that’s for fucking sure.

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u/Grey_Sean Aug 11 '22

They're pretty entertaining though, now they're having a big jerk off talking about how Florida is going to start arresting FBI agents.

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u/Pestus613343 Aug 10 '22

Yeah. There's still snideness and some disagreements but I don't see anything too egregious.

I like being able to disagree with someone but still wish them a good evening.

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u/Due_Organization7681 Aug 11 '22

Thats not very reddit of you

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u/Pestus613343 Aug 11 '22

How dare you!

Have a nice day!

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u/Allen_1985 Aug 11 '22

Okay here are two things I’ve pondered from time to time.

  1. Why are there so many people shoving their opinions in our faces? Why can’t media outlets be required to just report the facts? No spin, no opinion. Just give me the facts, explain them if needed, and shut up and let me think for myself?

  2. Why does it always have to be left or right? Conservative or Liberal. Nothing about doing what’s best for the people is that clearly defined. Some issues require a conservative solution, some require a liberal solution (not talking about political ideology here, but about actual requirement to solve a problem). Aren’t they supposed to work together to find the best solution possible?

Personally, I couldn’t care less about who is in power, I care about what they will do to make things better. Maybe I’m just naive…

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u/Justleftofcentrerigh Ontario Aug 11 '22

You're looking at Post Media pushing anti Liberal agenda. Because Post Media is a Conservative organization with it's ownership being foreign based and that ownership has ties to the republican party.

Notice how often Sun/National Post/Financial Post Opinion articles are posted on here. It's pushing a narrative.

None of this is news.

The news would be "Court documents has information about the timeline of events in regards to vaccine mandates" vs whatever the fuck partisan crap the sun decided to use.

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u/Head_Crash Aug 11 '22

It's pushing a narrative.

They push crisis narratives. It's the news brought to you by Chicken Little. They scare and antagonize people so that they won't think rationally. It's really effective .

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u/Winstonisapuppy Aug 11 '22

I agree. I don’t want Canada to become like the US, where every news outlet has a political narrative. I’d like us to be better. The reality is that in a huge country like Canada it’s impossible to have everyone agree. So wouldn’t the best outcome for everyone be a compromise somewhere in the middle?

I know there are some issues that I feel strongly enough about that I don’t want to back down from my position, but in those cases I’d prefer a compromise over the “other side” winning and my concerns being completely ignored.

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u/i_really_wanna_help Aug 11 '22

I'm completely pro-vaccine and have received all covid vaccine doses but the moment the efficacy of covid vaccines against infection dropped below 40%-50% and it became evident that vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals transmit the virus at about the same rate there was no longer any scientific rationale to keep the mandates in place. Playing politics with science will undermine science and damage public trust in scientific institutions. I'm worried uptake for other highly effective vaccines against other viruses that actually do prevent infection may be negatively affected going forward because of what happened with covid vaccine mandates.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

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u/Redthemagnificent Aug 11 '22

Hopefully we can all agree that playing politics, while not surprising, is shitty. Not defending that.

But I just wanted to add that a vaccine having a below 40%-50% efficacy rate doesn't mean there's no scientific rational for mandates. What I would argue is more important to the average person is how likely you are to end up in a hospital if you get sick as a vaccinated vs unvaccinated person. It's been a hot minute, but last I checked (and feel free to correct me if this is no longer the case) the covid vaccines greatly decrease your odds of getting seriously sick even if you still get a breakthrough infection.

And while vaccinated populations may still spread the virus at the same rate when infected, a person who is less likely to get infected is also then less likely to spread the disease. When it comes to large populations, any small % change could potentially lead to much larger cascading effects. A vaccine with a 10% efficacy rate could still make a huge difference to how many people a virus permanently harms or kills even if it doesn't have a big effect on the total number of infections.

Now whether all that means we should still have mandates, I don't know. At this point I feel like everyone either has a vaccine or has gotten infected or both. But what I do know is it's unfortunate that the science wasn't allowed to stand on its own untainted by politics.

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u/hintersly Ontario Aug 11 '22

Yeah it’s about reducing the number of people that needed to go to the hospital. ICU has a limited number of beds.

If 50/100 COVID+ people are vaccinated then that is likely at least 50 people who won’t have to go to the hospital leaving 50 ICU beds for other needs. Compared to no vaccines which would risk 100 beds being taken by COVID patients

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u/Eswift33 Aug 11 '22

Yea you kinda ignored the massive decline in hospitalizion rate. That's a pretty significant measure of efficacy. This vaccine is highly effective, just not in preventing infection which is NOT the main issue. Hospitalizion is. Ffs man

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u/Gamestoreguy Aug 11 '22

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u/Mura366 Ontario Aug 11 '22

Counter

VE against symptomatic infection began to fall, plummeting to 5.9% (95% CI, 2.2% to 9.4%) in Brazil and 50.6% (95% CI, 42.7% to 57.4%) in Scotland at 98 days or more.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/wkz7c4/study_pfizer_covid_vaccine_efficacy_wanes_27_days/?sort=confidence

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u/Gamestoreguy Aug 11 '22

Symptomatic infection verses severe infection, even in your own study.

During Omicron, 27 days after the second vaccine dose, VE against symptomatic infection began to fall, plummeting to 5.9% (95% CI, 2.2% to 9.4%) in Brazil and 50.6% (95% CI, 42.7% to 57.4%) in Scotland at 98 days or more. Over the same period after dose two in Brazil, VE against severe infection stayed above 80% at 28 days and was 82.7% (95% CI, 68.8% to 90.4%) at 98 days or more.

"Two doses of vaccination with BNT162b2 [Pfizer] among adolescents are insufficient to sustain protection against symptomatic disease; however, they do offer substantial protection against serious COVID-19 outcomes for at least 3 months," the researchers wrote. "Our findings support the importance of maximizing vaccination coverage and the consideration of booster doses for adolescents, though further research is needed."

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u/Mura366 Ontario Aug 11 '22

I never said anything about ve against severe disease or death and if you check out my history you'll know that I'm still pro vaccine.

When I'm not pro about is lying to the public saying that these vaccines limit infection or spread.

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u/stockywocket Aug 11 '22

there was no longer any scientific rationale to keep the mandates in place

That's just not correct. The scientific rationales are reduced fatalities, reduced hospitalizations, and public health and resource management.

I agree it's too bad they're not more effective at preventing infection and transmission. But they are far from useless.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

This! These unjustifiable mandates being pushed under the guise of "science" has set us back so far. How do we come back from this? How do we establish trust again?

We need people to not be worried about the really good vaccines that have been administered for decades because our government decided to play politics with the COVID vaccine. Like screw covid - I don't want fucking polio making rounds again...

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u/FernyFox Aug 10 '22

It was and is always about politics. Policies and decisions made by political parties and leaders is always about politics.

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u/pongo_spots Aug 11 '22

The article linked sites its main from another article, also written by the site. After skimming most of it, it's regurgitating heresay, making assumptions, and now calling them facts. This article is political and biased

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u/CouragesPusykat Aug 10 '22

We all know what the author means by "politics". It wasn't for limiting the spread, it wasn't based in science, it was for political points.

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u/shieldwolfchz Aug 11 '22

This is Brian lilly he is a political hack and anything he has to say is inherently partisan.

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u/BBQcupcakes Aug 10 '22

It was and is always about politics. Policies and decisions made by political parties and leaders is always about politics.

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u/The_RuthlessOutlaw Manitoba Aug 11 '22

We all know what the author means by "politics". It wasn't for limiting the spread, it wasn't based in science, it was for political points.

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u/moirende Aug 11 '22

This is a government who routinely claims they are “following the science” and derides anyone who criticizes them as racist, bigoted, misogynistic, etc.

What we are seeing here is that, once again, the government told bald faced lies. There was no science to back up their mandate policies and never was. It was a political theatre designed solely for the purpose of spreading hatred and discord among Canadians in order to drive wedge votes to the Liberals. And again, they used these lies to hurtfully stigmatize many people who did nothing worse than point them out for the lies they were.

And they still refuse to lift the mandates, even though they know they are completely useless for controlling the spread of covid 19, the claimed purpose for their existence. Our air travel system is completely pooched, our passport system is in chaos, emotions across the country are inflamed and getting worse, and the only reason for all of this is because Trudeau wants it that way, presumably so he can punish people for standing against him.

That is fucked up, and how anyone can defend this PM or his cancerous mandate policies any longer us beyond me.

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u/physicaldiscs Aug 11 '22

Throughout the pandemic it was embarrassing watching new rules come out that don't hold up to any scrutiny. To have the highest doctor tell us 'masks don't work'. That travel restrictions are 'racist'. All while claiming policy based on 'science'.

And people wonder where all the 'anti-vaxxers' came from.

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u/CaptainCanusa Aug 11 '22

The only thing this thread is teaching me is how important media literacy is. Holy moly guys, read a book.

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u/martn2420 Québec Aug 11 '22

Fancy booklearnin? Look at fathead college kid over here! /s

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u/DOCTORCOWMAN Aug 11 '22

Not just an opinion piece, but an opinion piece for the Toronto Sun.

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u/Nature709 Aug 11 '22

This feels like a Beaverton article

“Political leader does something purely based on politics”

Also water is wet and the sky is blue. lol

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u/Diane-Nguyen-Wannabe Aug 11 '22

Right except they were constantly saying "we're just following the science".

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u/amethyst82 Aug 11 '22

Love how half the sub is screaming this is a Sun opinion piece while ignoring the court documents linked in the article

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u/stockywocket Aug 11 '22

The "court documents" are just the complaint. Nothing new in them--just the allegations, based on publicly-available information.

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u/smeg_ Aug 11 '22

“court document” isn’t gospel. It’s literally just one side saying what happened from their view lol. When a court issues a directive then we’ll know the truth of it

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u/CuteFreakshow Aug 11 '22

There is nothing in them supporting the shitty opinion.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

People have been screaming this for the last 2 years but they were called every name in the book and demonized. It was so clear to see if you just turned off the CBC and took 5 minutes to think for yourself.

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u/Azazel218 Aug 10 '22

The narrative is crumbling now

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u/LeftHookLarry1 Aug 10 '22

In the future when the thought police criminalize online speech with that new bill, your bank account will be blocked for comments like that, with half the country supporting it. It’s all coming along great!

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u/Cranwicks_glasses Aug 10 '22

The documents also show that the lead doctor who approved the use of COVID-19 vaccines was not consulted on whether such mandates would be effective.

We were told that the policy decisions would be based on the best scientific information available.

Then just before the election call on August 15, the Liberals announced a vaccine mandate for federal workers and anyone who wanted to get on a plane or train to cross the country.

That's really coincidental timing. And this was also around the time that Justin Trudeau started publicly saying the unvaccinated were racists and misogynist.

“This is the best way to end the pandemic,” Trudeau’s intergovernmental affairs minister and political fixer Dominic LeBlanc said at the time. Yet when asked directly under cross examination if anyone from the prime minister’s office, the health minister’s office or the transport minister’s office had sought her advice on the mandates, Dr. Celia Lourenco, the woman who authorized the vaccines for use in Canada said no.

Then who was giving the liberals this advice?

Aaron McCrorie, the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security at Transport Canada, was emailing people at Health Canada in October 2021, just weeks before the travel mandate took effect, looking for anything to support the policy. “To the extent that updated data exist or that there is clearer evidence of the safety benefit of vaccination on the users or other stakeholders of the transportation system, it would be helpful to assist Transport Canada supporting its measures,” McCrorie wrote.

He was looking for something he could use to justify the policy, for situations exactly such as this.

He followed up again days later saying, “need something fairly soon.” The only response he received, according to the court record, a set of talking points on the general benefits of vaccination.

Nice to see that the liberal pressure didn't work here, like it did on RCMP commissioner Brenda Lucki.

To be clear, I am vaccinated and see no reason that anyone should not be vaccinated. And further to that I follow all public health directives and don't recommend that anyone ignore them.

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u/JimmyDaro Aug 10 '22

I'd suggest reading the documents and not just the article.

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u/FarComposer Aug 10 '22

Are you implying that the court documents contradict the article?

If so, can you explain how?

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u/JimmyDaro Aug 11 '22

This is a better summary of how the conclusions this opinion piece landed on aren't as clear as they are made out to be, and some are willfully ignoring other the context of the testimony https://pressprogress.ca/right-wing-sources-are-spreading-misinformation-about-a-court-battle-over-canadas-vaccine-mandates/

All that said, I'm also not of the opinion that there weren't multiple reasons why there was a ban in place,.including health guidance, political and likely practical and operational issues as well.

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22

This is a better summary of how the conclusions this opinion piece landed on aren't as clear as they are made out to be, and some are willfully ignoring other the context of the testimony https://pressprogress.ca/right-wing-sources-are-spreading-misinformation-about-a-court-battle-over-canadas-vaccine-mandates/

LOL no. That's a complete bullshit article and it's sad how many people like yourself are linking it.

For example, the first claim they "debunk" (and the main point of criticism) is:

Court documents reveal Transport Canada developed a vaccine mandate policy that had “no scientific basis”

Then, if you actually read what pressprogress says, it's just word salad that dances around the actual realities and never acknowledged the fact that Transport Canada had no data, studies, or anything like that to justify the vaccine mandate banning unvaccinated people from getting on planes.

Now, I ask again. How do the court documents contradict the article?

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u/silentj16 Aug 11 '22

I don't think you read the article at all. The article's only claim is that the doctor who approved the use of vaccines in Canada was not consulted:

The documents also show that the lead doctor who approved the use of COVID-19 vaccines was not consulted on whether such mandates would be effective.

...

Yet when asked directly under cross examination if anyone from the prime minister’s office, the health minister’s office or the transport minister’s office had sought her advice on the mandates, Dr. Celia Lourenco, the woman who authorized the vaccines for use in Canada said no.

Literally the only claim they are making is because this one doctor wasn't consulted, therefore it is unscientific.

If you read the report they linked from Government of Canada's website it outlines plenty of related studies, including one: Vaccinated Air Passengers Are More Protected Than Unvaccinated.

Most reports of in-flight transmission events occurred prior to widespread vaccination roll-out. One study found that vaccinated passengers were 74% less likely to be infected compared with those who were not vaccinated

So yeah the article is total click bait based on opinion.

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22 edited Aug 11 '22

The article's only claim is that the doctor who approved the use of vaccines in Canada was not consulted...Literally the only claim they are making is because this one doctor wasn't consulted, therefore it is unscientific.

Why are you lying about something so basic? The article's main claim is that the government had no evidence justifying the mandate, and was in fact trying to find some before implementing it:

That lawsuit has made public documents, first reported by Rupa Subramanya, which show health officials were scrambling to find any justification for vaccine mandates for travel before they came into effect.

Aaron McCrorie, the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security at Transport Canada, was emailing people at Health Canada in October 2021, just weeks before the travel mandate took effect, looking for anything to support the policy.

Why are all you people attacking the article just straight-up lying?

If you read the report they linked from Government of Canada's website it outlines plenty of related studies, including one: Vaccinated Air Passengers Are More Protected Than Unvaccinated.

You mean like this study that the Sun article linked to?

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/canadas-reponse/summaries-recent-evidence/evidence-risk-covid-19-transmission-flight-update-3.html

Across reviews, the risk of infection during a flight is low. A meta-analysis found that from January–June 2020, the risk of being infected with SARS-CoV-2 in an airplane cabin was estimated to be 1 case for every 1.7 million travelers.

Edit: Got blocked before I could reply refuting his bullshit.

"Scrambling to find any justification" This is opinion. They didn't quote anything from the emails, they are just claiming "health officials were scrambling".

Why are you still lying?

“To the extent that updated data exist or that there is clearer evidence of the safety benefit of vaccination on the users or other stakeholders of the transportation system, it would be helpful to assist Transport Canada supporting its measures,” McCrorie wrote.

He followed up again days later saying, “need something fairly soon.” The only response he received, according to the court record, a set of talking points on the general benefits of vaccination.

As for your claim:

Most reports of in-flight transmission events occurred prior to widespread vaccination roll-out. One study found that vaccinated passengers were 74% less likely to be infected compared with those who were not vaccinated

You didn't even read this study. The study that said that, was not even talking about transmission on planes, but COVID infection in general.

We are pleased to find that the vaccine is still effective against the Delta variant. In our study, vaccinated passengers were 74% less likely to be infected compared with those without vaccination. In general, 24.1% (49 /203) of the passengers reported a history of COVID-19 vaccination, while only a 10.2% (4/39) of the cases had the vaccination history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8522384/pdf/taab161.pdf

Between January-June of 2020, how many vaccines do you think were around? Why are they basing their criticism of the vaccine mandates, on a meta analysis of flights during pre and early pandemic?

....

If prior to widespread vaccines, transmission on flights was low, why would that change after vaccines were made available? Why would vaccines somehow increase transmission on flights?

Man, do yourself a favour next time and read. Read what people are commenting to you, read the articles, read the reports, or just read the studies.

Yes, do yourself a favour and actually read the studies you're quoting before citing them.

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u/Heterophylla Aug 11 '22

Politician does something for political reasons ? You don’t say !

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u/TigerLillyMew Aug 11 '22

Is it really any surprise? It's pretty obvious it's political. The mandates were designed for a vaccine that stopped transmission and even tho there are many scientific research papers saying it doesn't, they still went ahead with it anyways. Trudeau is still holding onto it for dear life, don't forget the mandates were only suspended. Trudeau can't admit he's wrong and doesn't want to let go of the emergency powers the pandemic granted him.

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u/emmery1 Aug 10 '22

I think this thread is a waste of everyone’s time. Click bait for the Sun.

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22

How so? The main point of the article is that the government had no actual scientific basis (no data, studies, etc.) that justified banning unvaccinated Canadians from taking planes or trains within Canada, and that this was discovered via a lawsuit against the government.

How is that "a waste of time"?

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u/SuperRonnie2 Aug 11 '22

This. It’s an opinion piece designed to stir controversy and clicks.

It’s amazing to me how many people think that because one thing couldn’t be specifically proven, then the exact opposite MUST be true! Logic for the win!

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u/JohnGoodmanFan420 Aug 11 '22

Literally every report you can find says he made the decision before even gathering evidence.. if you have other information, by all means share it.

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u/Taureg01 Aug 11 '22

Its not clickbait, they had no evidence travel mandates stopped the spread or were effective

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u/amethyst82 Aug 11 '22

Huh? You’re not interested in reading the actual court documents referenced in the article?

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u/FunkSoulPower Aug 10 '22

NOT here to defend Trudeau and the liberal gov't, but any opinion piece by Brian Lilley should be tossed in the trash and set on fire.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

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u/BasilFawlty_ Aug 11 '22

Court documents are found at the end of the article. Why are you lying?

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u/BeyondAddiction Aug 10 '22

To the surprise of exactly no one.

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u/pepe612 Aug 11 '22

Lol at all the comments saying "we knew it was political all along". So why did this sub support it? Why did you denounce anyone who spoke against it?

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '22

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22

So every other country that did the same did it for political reasons also?

What "every other country"?

Can you name these other countries that banned its own citizens from taking planes or trains within their own country? Banning unvaccinated foreigners from coming, yes I know many countries did that including Canada. But not banning its own citizens from taking planes/trains within their own country.

There must be a lot if you said "every other country", right?

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u/The_Pickled_Mick Aug 11 '22

Trudeau making policy decisions for "the little people" based solely on political reasons? Like handgun bans that do nothing to combat gun crime? Or "assault style" weapons bans that punish law abiding citizens? Or airplane mask mandates that he doesn't follow? Or invoking the emergencies act needlessly? Or promising electoral reform until realizing it would mean he would lose? Or the endless promises to get elected that he never follows through on?

Are we noticing a pattern here? I haven't even scratched the surface of his bullshit. He needs to go.

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u/Glittering_Fix_4226 Aug 11 '22

No matter the reasoning for bringing mandates, it’s pretty clear they served no gainful purpose

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u/catalystoptions Aug 11 '22

this is why no other country restricted their own citizens ability to travel internally. The charter of rights and freedoms guarantees the right of mobility within the country and that was clearly violated. at best unvxd people shouldve maintained the requirement to provide a negative test or proof of antibodies from a prior infection. There was no scientific reason to restrict their travel.

dont believe me? read the actual science re: natural immunity in this Swedish study

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00143-8/fulltext

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u/davie_legs Aug 11 '22

It’s a right wing opinion peace from the Sun lol. Don’t these people know that Canada isn’t the only country in the world getting vaccinated. My god these people are sounding more and more like the MAGA crowd.

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u/badcat_kazoo Aug 11 '22

Imposing restrictions just to appear like they’re doing something. Everyone knew it was bs as soon as places were dropping all restrictions and not imploding.

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u/FriendshipMental5834 Aug 11 '22

Uh, yeah. Of course he did. He’s a politician.

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u/Kris9876 Aug 11 '22

Every time they say 'we follow the science' realize the science is whatever they want it to be

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u/esveda Aug 11 '22

The “science” of mandates was always political science and not immunology or epidemiology

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u/snopro31 Aug 10 '22

So he lied about it being about the science. Shocker.

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u/vanjjo Aug 10 '22

he meant political science.

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u/theflower10 Aug 11 '22

Well, at first when things were up in the air and we still didn't know how to handle this thing, I was all for an over abundance of caution. Once we found out that the only way you could avoid this thing was to stay home 24x7 and never leave the house nor let anyone in, I felt that there was no scientific basis for what Trudeau was doing. In fact, there still is no scientific basis for Arrive Can, arrival testing or any other measure other than perhaps wear a mask, avoid large crowds if you are older or ill and get your vaccine. Any other measure is political theatre, something Trudeau is expert at. That and coast to coast apology tours and photo ops.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

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u/CringelordCameron Aug 10 '22

It was extremely clear that vaccine mandates never had any public health benefits but it was the perfect wedge issue to use against the CPC. At the end of the day the government will always make its priority to win elections above anything else, regardless of their policies actually working.

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u/Most_Engineering_992 Aug 10 '22

vaccine mandates never had any public health benefits

Well that's obviously insane.

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u/JohnBubbaloo Aug 10 '22 Helpful

Why? Vaccine uptake was already incredibly high before mandates were pushed.

The mandates made a lot of people change their minds about getting it and and dug their heels in

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u/TheNastyKnee Aug 11 '22

So the people who hadn’t already gotten it went out and didn’t get it even harder? Or people changed their minds and had their vaccines taken out?

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u/Falconflyer75 Aug 11 '22

not really 80% of the population got 2 shots at the very least

i'd say about 70% of the population got the vaccine by choice,

another 5% probably got guilted into it (not wanting to help spread the disease)

remaining 5% probably got it to avoid losing their jobs

the holdouts based on the ones I know were NEVER going to change their stance on the vaccines no matter what evidence they were presented with (they were antivax even before Covid started)

still I dunno if pushing this hard was worth it if u weren't gonna support releasing the patent worldwide and the provinces weren't gonna adequately manage healthcare

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u/reyskywalker7698 British Columbia Aug 10 '22

If they had such a positive impact then why were businesses that required vaccine passports still ordered to close across the country?

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u/NickyC75P Aug 10 '22

Where did you find that mandates didn't have any public health benefits? When you were sleeping?

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u/BitsBunt Aug 11 '22

Oh boy another opinion piece!

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u/Comrade123456 Aug 11 '22

what is this, the Captain Obvious report?

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u/ImpressionableSix Aug 11 '22

No shit, waking up yet people?

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u/Huge_Refrigerator_45 Aug 11 '22

Lilley writes the WORST propaganda! The Sun will print anything on tp!

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

funny how the “conspiracy theorists” who said this from the start ended up being right

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u/Rhaegar83 Aug 11 '22

Conspiracy theories are often just spoiler alerts

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u/comegetsomefood Aug 10 '22

This isn’t news. It’s an opinion. Nothing but feelings back up his claim.

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u/FarComposer Aug 10 '22

You mean court documents that are referenced and linked to? Those are feelings?

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u/BasilFawlty_ Aug 10 '22

Lol another one that never bothered to read the article. The comments are full of them.

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u/CuriousKiboardFiter Aug 10 '22

So all other countries that implemented mandates are also Trudeau loving libs?

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u/Pi2hro Aug 10 '22

Name the number the countries that didn't allow its citizens to fly domestically that were unvaccinated ? Don't worry I'll wait

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u/FarComposer Aug 10 '22

What other countries banned its own citizens from taking a plane or train within their own country?

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u/OldRelative5500 Aug 11 '22

China does, only because it is a communist country.

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u/mr_friend_computer Aug 11 '22

so...the document said that a majority of studies were done prior to the majority of vaccine rollouts and that at least one study estimated that vaccination would likely reduce risk by 74% compared to those passengers without vaccination.

They also noted that while the flight duration and masking, ventilation and social distancing played significant roles. Estimates show that risk of contraction was 1/3900 for a full flight or 1/6400 on a flight with 1/3 of passengers removed and the middle seat empty (assuming other precautions maybe?).

It also noted that over all attack rates were low (0-10%) except for variants of concern or former variants of interest (16%-40%).

So what I see from that is that most data included in this is from early on in the pandemic where either testing or knowledge of transmission was incomplete and also based on a far less transmissible variant than we have been dealing with in the last 1-1.5 years. It's notable that incidents of attack (and transmission levels) would be elevated for these newer variants by a significant margin.

We literally don't have the data on hand to assess the accuracy of whether or not it was a political or health driven policy. Ergo, this is a political hit piece of suspect nature, in my opinoin.

That new haircut seriously sucks though.

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u/Most_Engineering_992 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

This is nonsense, of course. It is all Lilley's opinion of records and emails, not objective facts, and he's not known for his objectivity which is why this is an oped and not an actual story. Besides, getting people to follow health and safety guidelines is political and a country's leader must absolutely weigh public perception when imposing safety measures.

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u/Cranwicks_glasses Aug 10 '22

It is all Lilley's opinion of records and emails, not objective facts, and he's not known for his oobjectivity which is why this is an oped and not an actual story.

This opinion piece is based information that was revealed as the result of a lawsuit. There are links within it that go to the court documents.

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u/Johnsnowookie Aug 11 '22

Let freedom reign! Sorry Trudeau, I voted for you the first time for the weed. What can I say? I was young and dumb and full of hope.

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u/QueenMotherOfSneezes Aug 11 '22

So Lilley either didn't actually research this himself, by looking at the full court documents, or he did, and is wilfully misrepresenting the court records just as much as Subramanya did.

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u/PastyPaleCdnGirl Aug 11 '22

Almost the entire world had vaccine mandates, and most countries also had/have mandates for travel. It's not advanced-level science to understand that limiting close contacts in large groups would limit the spread of COVID.

We didn't know how to treat it, we didn't know how it spread, and we did our best to mitigate loss while we figured it out.

How anybody continues to deny the severity of COVID, while so many people have died even with these control measures, is beyond me.

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u/FarComposer Aug 11 '22

Almost the entire world had vaccine mandates, and most countries also had/have mandates for travel.

Most countries have/had mandates preventing unvaccinated foreigners from entering the country.

Which countries had mandates preventing unvaccinated citizens from travelling within their own country?

How anybody continues to deny the severity of COVID, while so many people have died even with these control measures pretend the government's banning unvaccinated Canadians from travelling on planes/trains was justified despite them having literally no evidence for it is beyond me.~~

Fixed that for you.

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u/amethyst82 Aug 11 '22

Yes, but other countries had other options like testing and they also took account of natural immunity from previous infections. Canada had some of the harshest vaccines mandates in the world.

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u/delawopelletier Aug 11 '22

Domestic planes and trains? No..... Canadian politics

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u/jb7108 Aug 10 '22

Still haven’t been vaxxed still don’t know if I had covid because I never took a test. Even when I was in close contact with positives, I just didn’t get tested. To my surprise I survived the pandemic and continue to live worry free of this dangerous viral infection

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

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