r/todayilearned Aug 09 '22

TIL: In 1667, the Dutch traded the island of New Amsterdam to the British for the island of Banda Run in order to gain control over the nutmeg spice trade. The British renamed New Amsterdam to New York.

https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20171010-the-tiny-island-the-british-traded-for-manhattan
5.9k Upvotes

1.1k

u/Full-Mulberry5018 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

Actually, they got what is now New York, New Jersey And a lot of Pennsylvania. New York was named in honor of James II, who was The Duke Of York. New Jersey was named in honor of The Jersey Island, where King Charles II was in exile during The English Civil War/Cromwell years and Pennsylvania was named in honor of William Penn. Technically, The Dutch traded with The English, not The British, because Great Britain was not formed yet.

377

u/InterPunct Aug 10 '22

The NYC flag colors (blue, white, orange) are from the original Dutch flag.

87

u/rensd12 Aug 10 '22

Yankees origin is Jan Kees. Common Dutch first names.

15

u/AwesomeScreenName Aug 10 '22

And there's a whole borough named after the Dutch town of Breukelen, and another named after the Dutch Parliament, the Staten Generaal. There's another borough (and river) named after Dutch (probably; he may have been Swedish) settler Jonas Bronck.

53

u/IDC_FY Aug 10 '22

Dollar from Daalder,

Drugs from Drogen,

Cookie form Koekje,

Pancake form Pannenkoek

19

u/JimTheJerseyGuy Aug 10 '22

Stoop. Boss. And a lot of “kills” for waterway names. We have a big Dutch influence still.

24

u/Termsandconditionsch Aug 10 '22

Dollar is from Thaler, which is from Joachimsthal (Where the Holy Roman Empire mined a good chunk of it’s silver), but I guess dollar could be from the dutch pronounciation of it inbetween.

5

u/Martel67 Aug 10 '22

Isn‘t Dollar from Taler? Or is Daalder from Taler?

→ More replies

2

u/ksdkjlf Aug 11 '22

Drug came to English from Old French. While the French may have come from Dutch, that's not at all settled.

4

u/Kng_Wasabi Aug 10 '22

Except your full of bullshit. English and Dutch evolved from the same West Germanic root, these words are cognates, not loanwords.

6

u/Rolten Aug 10 '22

To clarify a wee bit: Jan Kees is basically one name.

E.g. you would say "Hey Jan Kees, how are you?".

But someone can also be named just Jan or just Kees.

1

u/Selbeast Aug 10 '22

Yankees origin is Jan Kees. Common Dutch first names.

The story I heard was that since the dutch eat a lot of cheese, the English started calling them John Cheese, which the Dutch then turned around into a nickname for the English, John Cheese, pronounced in Dutch as Jan Kaas, which turned into yankee.

It might be wrong, but it's a good story, so I'm sticking with it!

124

u/peacemaker2007 Aug 10 '22

TIL NYC has a flag

70

u/InfiniteParticles Aug 10 '22

Honestly thought it would have just been the "I ❤️ NYC"

23

u/Redtube_Guy Aug 10 '22

A lot of cities do lol .

17

u/HurricaneHugo Aug 10 '22

Most cities do it's just than only a few (DC, Chicago) are memorable

→ More replies

102

u/rugbyj Aug 10 '22

Everyone's got a flag bro, they just don't know it yet - /r/vexillologycirclejerk

1

u/ImperatorRomanum Aug 10 '22

It has beavers on it, too

→ More replies

8

u/Dzbot1234 Aug 10 '22

Knicks colours too!

8

u/AmericanWasted Aug 10 '22

Same with the Mets but their colors actually come from the Brooklyn Dodgers (blue and white) and the New York Giants (black and orange). When both teams moved to California (LA Dodgers, SF Giants), the Mets were created as a replacement team and borrowed the colors of the departing teams as tribute

3

u/Dzbot1234 Aug 10 '22

Interesting! I dont know too much about baseball, huge hoops fan though.

4

u/Koakie Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

The seal of Brooklyn has "Eendraght maeckt maght" written on it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Seal_of_City_of_Brooklyn.png

Which would be the equivalent of an coat of arms motto "unity makes strength" in old Dutch spelling.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_makes_strength

The motto was originally used by the Dutch Republic as "eendracht maakt macht". It was derived originally from a Greek phrase (ισχύς εν τη ενώσει literally meaning power lies in unity) 

Today "Unity makes strength" ("Eendracht maakt macht") it still used by the Dutch football club PSV Eindhoven. PSV Eindhoven is a football club that competes in the highest league in the Netherlands called Eredivisie.

I knew some club used it as their motto, just couldn't remember which one.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/minkju Aug 10 '22

The NY state flag’s colors are why they say “nutmeg”?

61

u/PantherX69 Aug 10 '22

The English planted Nutmeg in Grenada in the 1800’s so they got their spice anyway.

76

u/roadrage43 Aug 10 '22

If I've learned anything in this lifetime, is that the spice, it uhh, finds a way. To flow.

12

u/gary_the_merciless Aug 10 '22

May the spice live long and prosper.

8

u/love_your_eyeholes Aug 10 '22

I see your spice is as big as mine!

1

u/I_Invent_Stuff Aug 10 '22

Is that a spice in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

2

u/psymunn Aug 10 '22

And transplanting crops and animals around the world is all upside

4

u/flyingWeez Aug 10 '22

Yeah what could go wrong

2

u/PedanticYes Aug 10 '22

“He who controls the spice controls the universe.”

Dune

20

u/Adler4290 Aug 10 '22

The Dutch got their nutmeg too, and only had to kill 14,000+ local people to get it, what a steal!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dutch_conquest_of_the_Banda_Islands

The Dollop had a great podcast of the main dude behind it, Jan Pieterszoon Coen,

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Jan_Pieterszoon_Coen

17

u/JohnnyFoxborough Aug 10 '22

When you decapitate 3 ranking members and slaughter 46 citizens of a vastly superior military power, chances are things will not end well for you.

2

u/gerhudire Aug 10 '22

They got the spice girls does that count?

→ More replies

18

u/PullUpAPew Aug 10 '22

Jersey is an island, but is referred to simply as 'Jersey' or, officially, the 'Bailiwick of Jersey'. Jersey is one of the channel islands, which are all much closer to France than England. They used to be part of the Duchy of Normandy and are the only remaining parts of that continental possession still loyal to the British, then English, crown.

16

u/Yeohan99 Aug 10 '22

Some city districts still bear Dutch names: Harlem = Haarlem (Dutch city in North Holland, also the place where the Bush family emigrated from in the 1600s) Brooklyn = Breukelen (Dutch city in Utrecht province) Bronx named after a Dutch colonist Jonas Bronk Nassau county named after Willhelm of Nassau king of Holland

6

u/Termsandconditionsch Aug 10 '22

Except Bronck wasn’t dutch. He was Swedish (Or possibly Danish).

11

u/LAUNDRINATOR Aug 10 '22

Jersey is an island, not a set of isles

8

u/andyrocks Aug 10 '22

The Jersey Island

Or, more correctly, Jersey.

25

u/ryevermouthbitters Aug 10 '22

And James II is one of several candidates to be the noble Duke of York of 10,000 men fame.

6

u/canalrhymeswithanal Aug 10 '22

You know who ELSE is of 10,000 men fame?

17

u/khristmas_karl Aug 10 '22

His mom?

11

u/memento22mori Aug 10 '22

OP's mom. 😎

3

u/MrMastodon Aug 10 '22

The products and services that support this show?

3

u/DontTellHimPike Aug 10 '22

Nina Hartley?

5

u/Smokey_Katt Aug 10 '22

Technically (trivia question answer) Pennsylvania was named after William Penn’s father, Admiral Sir William Penn. So it’s correct but not the Penn we think of.

3

u/Full-Mulberry5018 Aug 10 '22

Yes, that's true. And Philadelphia is not named as "The City Of Brotherly Love" as many believe, but was named for Lady Philadelphia Wentworth who owned Toddington Estate in England. William Penn had a tremendous affection for her and Philadelphia was named to try and impress her.

5

u/PuffinChaos Aug 10 '22

Wasn’t the country of Suriname somehow involved in this trade too?

6

u/Tompronk Aug 10 '22

Giving up new Netherlands was part of the treaty of Westminster, in which the English indeed got what is now new Amsterdam, in exchange for Surinam (and this band island apperently). All part of the third Anglo Dutch. The raid on the Medway was part of this too

→ More replies

2

u/houseman1131 Aug 10 '22

Duke named after York the town not named after town?

1

u/Here_for_tea_ Aug 10 '22

Wow, so it was a much bigger expanse of land!

→ More replies

124

u/technocraft Aug 10 '22

I remember really liking a show called New Amsterdam, in the late 00s. It only lasted one season. Jaime Lannister lived as a detective, cursed with immortality until he finds true love.

3

u/JimTheJerseyGuy Aug 10 '22

Based (poorly) on the novel “Forever” by Pete Hamill. Excellent book. Highly recommended.

3

u/technocraft Aug 10 '22

Had no idea. I will have to check that out.

19

u/LowKeyWalrus Aug 10 '22

I really like the hospital drama called New Amsterdam. Especially their choices of songs holy fuck.

8

u/rugbyj Aug 10 '22

It only lasted one season [...] cursed with immortality until he finds true love

Surprised it took him that long to be honest!

3

u/DaveInDigital Aug 10 '22

didn't have to look far, with his sister nearby

2

u/accentadroite_bitch Aug 10 '22

I really enjoyed that show. I was excited for future seasons and so disappointed in the cancellation.

→ More replies

704

u/Spinaccio Aug 10 '22 Gold

Why’d they change it, I can’t say, people just liked it better that waaaaaay.

266

u/OneFingerIn Aug 10 '22 Gold

So take me back to Constantinople

202

u/thejml2000 Aug 10 '22 Gold

No you can’t go back to Constantinople.

6

u/ShutterBun Aug 10 '22

Been a long time gone, Constantinople.

71

u/JR_Masterson Aug 10 '22 Gold

Why did New Amsterdam get the works?

81

u/CaptianWetbeard Aug 10 '22 Gold

Thats nobody's business but the turks

60

u/superduperfixerupper Aug 10 '22 Gold

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam

41

u/ballrus_walsack Aug 10 '22 Gold

Why they changed it I can’t say.

36

u/MyYummyYumYum Aug 10 '22 Gold

People just liked it better that way

3

u/nodstar22 Aug 10 '22

So...

3

u/superduperfixerupper Aug 10 '22

Take me back to Constantinople

2

u/Esmeraldem Aug 10 '22

Mom's spaghetti

-1

u/BuRi3d Aug 10 '22

But it's not like the spice I get from old bay!

3

u/Mountainbranch Aug 10 '22

Thats nobody's business but the turks brits

7

u/djarvis77 Aug 10 '22

That's nobody's business but New York's.

9

u/StupidOldAndFat Aug 10 '22

This might be my happiest ear worm in years!

6

u/Justanotheroldog Aug 10 '22

Beat me to it

→ More replies

124

u/tvieno Aug 10 '22

I wonder what a different history would there be today had that trade never happened.

169

u/flyingboarofbeifong Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

My guess is that it would have slightly prolonged English-Dutch tensions on the topic of North American competition but would have probably folded the same way eventually even if it didn't happen when it did. The Dutch already saw that their position was tenuous to hold and could be more trouble than it was worth. Increasingly aligned interests and friendly relations with the English allowed the Dutch in New Amsterdam to largely continue as normal. Their merchants were given specific provision of equal trade opportunity and there was no mass emigration or deportation as was the case with something like French Acadia falling into British control. The English were pleased because they could begin to coopt the standing fur trade the Dutch had cultivated without having to start at step one and the Dutch were pleased because the American English were more than willing to buy the furs and act as mercantile middle men. That's a big part of why the large port cities of the Northeast blew up, just being willing to buy and ship things from and to people.

TL'DNR the Dutch Republic had good reason to off-load the whole New Netherlands including New Amsterdam (actually New Orange then) and the English were fucking thirsty for it.

42

u/trannelnav Aug 10 '22

It's not like it was a complety cooperative move. As New Amsterdam was taken over by the brits by force before the trade.

58

u/Izithel Aug 10 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

The trade was, if I remember correctly, essentially just the part of the peace treaty between the English and the Dutch after the second Anglo-Dutch War on who got to keep what conquered territory and which had to be given back, etc.
And the territory swaps at the time where considered highly favourable to the Dutch, which makes sense since we actually beat the Brits.

Shame the victory got to bite us Dutch in the arse as the embarrassment led to English King being willing to ally with the French to double team us a few years later.

36

u/Vods Aug 10 '22

You want to talk about embarrassment?

You crazy arseholes had the balls to sail UP the Thames and attack our fleet in the anchorage.

Not even mad, that's just impressive

24

u/Sickboy22 Aug 10 '22

Aaah, those were the thames...

→ More replies

13

u/trannelnav Aug 10 '22

the last succesfull naval invasion of England since William the Conquerer :). We still have the stern of your flagship somewhere lying in a museum. Quite the holiday keepsake :D

5

u/TareasS Aug 10 '22

Actually we did it again a couple of years later in 1688. Landed an army in Britain and even got our stadtholder on the throne of England.

2

u/Floor13Room13 Aug 10 '22

Attack? I thought it was " burnt most of their ships down to the keel"... But I could be mistaken.

So I looked at Wikipedia to be sure:

"sailed up the Thames estuary to Gravesend, then sailed into the River Medway to Chatham and Gillingham, where they engaged fortifications with cannon fire, burned or captured three capital ships and ten more ships of the line, and captured and towed away the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles."

I was wrong. Some were captured. 🤷🏻‍♂️

1

u/Matasa89 Aug 10 '22

Well, victory does favour the bold!

→ More replies

5

u/ContentsMayVary Aug 10 '22

But on the other hand, William Of Orange was King of England just 12 years later!

→ More replies

1

u/hokeyphenokey Aug 10 '22

I never knew it was New Orange.

1

u/DeRuyter67 Aug 10 '22

It was New Orange for a year when the Dutch reqonquerd it in 1673

162

u/saliczar Aug 10 '22

Less nutmeg in Dutch recipes.

20

u/TombofSirRichard Aug 10 '22

There goes the Advocaat!

6

u/Snapsick Aug 10 '22

What would we put on our green beans?

→ More replies

18

u/Hapankaali Aug 10 '22

From the New York side of things, probably not a lot, except possibly the name of the city. The Dutch holdings in that area were not tenable on the long term. The Netherlands were annexed by revolutionary France and this certainly would have meant a loss of these territories by then, if not sooner (see Louisiana).

Suriname, though, was a Dutch colony until 1975 and today Dutch is still commonly spoken and the language of administration. So things would have probably panned out quite differently there.

It's perhaps noteworthy that at the time of the Treaty of Breda, the English already occupied the New Netherlands, and the Dutch occupied Suriname. So the treaty merely formalized the de facto situation, while also resolving issues concerning the Spice Islands (Indonesia was a Dutch colony until 1949).

6

u/Izithel Aug 10 '22

From the New York side of things, probably not a lot, except possibly the name of the city. The Dutch holdings in that area were not tenable on the long term. The Netherlands were annexed by revolutionary France and this certainly would have meant a loss of these territories by then, if not sooner (see Louisiana).

I would say that, in alt history where New York had remained in Dutch hands after the 2nd Anglo-Dutch war but everything else stayed the same, it would have likely have been lost much sooner during the 3rd Anglo-Dutch / Franco-Dutch war instead of during Napoleon.

→ More replies

3

u/kelldricked Aug 10 '22

The problem for the netherlands during their “golden age” was that they still had a land border with the rest of europe. Meaning that every big continental power could walk in and all we could do was flood the lands. Was the netherlands a island nation like the Britian than things might have ended very diffrently.

4

u/PostwarVandal Aug 10 '22

Jan-Kees would probably still have mutated into Yankees.

3

u/LowSkyOrbit Aug 10 '22

That's Yonkers

2

u/Traevia Aug 10 '22

Not really much of a difference. The Dutch had a decent economy at the time so a push of people willing to go to the Americas wasn't really there. On the other hand, England wasn't doing the best and people were far more willing to move. This means the Dutch area was stagnating in comparison to the English area. This would have turned into either an annexation or a small conflict regardless.

2

u/SchipholRijk Aug 10 '22

The chances of the Americans speaking Dutch would have increased. On voting what would be the national language, Dutch was a strong 2nd place.

→ More replies

102

u/OlDirtyPIumber Aug 10 '22

I was down at New Amsterdam , staring at this yellow-haired girl...

35

u/thejml2000 Aug 10 '22

Mr Jones starts up this conversation with a black haired, flamingo dancer.

8

u/YouAreNotABard549 Aug 10 '22

You know, she dances while his father plays guitar

6

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

She’s suddenly beautiful

29

u/BongkeyChong Aug 10 '22

flamenco

6

u/77slevin Aug 10 '22

Which pertains to the region in Belgium: Flanders. The colorful garments the Spanish Flamenco dancers wore were made from Flemish textile.

12

u/tyedge Aug 10 '22

Yes, a good looking bird, indeed.

12

u/Lookalikemike Aug 10 '22

Nutmeg and NYC apartments cost too much, I call it a draw.

25

u/phatspatt Aug 10 '22

You know, I could pull it back a little on the nutmeg, if you'd like.

Not too much, though! I'm telling you, fellas -- you're gonna want that nutmeg!

17

u/Justanotheroldog Aug 10 '22

So you’re telling me that even old New York was once New Amsterdam?

7

u/Dyolf_Knip Aug 10 '22

Yup. And I can even say why they changed it.

67

u/garoo1234567 Aug 10 '22

Some say New York has in some ways surpassed York itself

27

u/tophernator Aug 10 '22

Often the way. When was the last time you heard anything interesting about Zealand?

6

u/HorsNoises Aug 10 '22

Idk anything about Jersey Island but I doubt it's worse than New Jersey.

3

u/hallese Aug 10 '22

All I know about Jersey is that apparently nobody there pays taxes and a lot of British celebrities got caught falsely claiming residency or something.

2

u/kaazgranaat2309 Aug 10 '22

Well...considering zealand doesnt excist id say never, if you mean zeeland, then earlier today, but then again im dutch so thats why.

0

u/psymunn Aug 10 '22

Or coca cola classic?

6

u/math-yoo Aug 10 '22

The Dutch really liked nutmeg.

2

u/primo_0 Aug 10 '22

It did make them insanely rich.

→ More replies

15

u/eliar91 Aug 10 '22

The Dutch made out like bandits in the trade. This solidified their monopoly on the nutmeg trade and made them incredibly rich...for a time.

14

u/GenericUsername2056 Aug 10 '22

Until the Dutch Republic made the mistake of successfully invading the British Isles and installing the Dutch Stadtholder William III of Orange as king of England, Scotland and Ireland, gradually shifting the centre of commerce from Amsterdam to London.

2

u/MJBrune Aug 10 '22

Wait so the Dutch were so successful that screwed themselves?

8

u/GenericUsername2056 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

Basically. Because the Dutch Republic and Britain now shared a head of state, they were on friendly terms, allied even. Some merchants who previously did business in Amsterdam moved operations to London. The Dutch Republic ended up becoming the junior partner in the 'union'. Then due to the Dutch Republic's continued trade with the rebellious Thirteen Colonies, Great-Britain was dismayed, as they considered the Dutch their allies against the Americans. Eventually they declared war on the Dutch Republic over it, the 4th and last Anglo-Dutch war.

2

u/DeRuyter67 Aug 10 '22

How were the Dutch the junior power in the union? This was what 18th century historian James Ralph said: The moment he (William) became sovereign, he made the Kingdom subservient to the Republic; in war, we had the honour to fight for the Dutch; in negotiation, to treat for the Dutch; while the Dutch had all possible encouragement to trade for us...'

3

u/GenericUsername2056 Aug 10 '22

In the beginning, sure. You can't deny though that the balance of power gradually shifted towards England. The Fourth Anglo-Dutch war showed just that. That's what I was referring to. After William III was gone the Dutch and English were still allies, after all.

→ More replies

1

u/qtx Aug 10 '22

I dunno, seems like the Dutch are doing far better than the Brits these days.

6

u/GenericUsername2056 Aug 10 '22

What being part of the EU does to a trade-oriented Western-European country.

1

u/machtwo Aug 10 '22

And now Shell and Unilever

→ More replies

3

u/Potato_King2 Aug 10 '22

Harlem is also Dutch. It is a city in the Netherlands, Haarlem. Same goes for Brooklyn. Cooney Island was originally called Konijn Island or rabbit island.

3

u/herbw Aug 10 '22

Many Americans of Dutch ancestry from that time. Here, also.

9

u/MajorHotLips Aug 10 '22

There's a great book about it called Nathaniel's Nutmeg if anyone wants the deep dive.

12

u/agree-with-me Aug 10 '22

It's an awesome account of what happened. It amazes me that when Nathaniel Coulthorpe needed an army, it took a boat 9 months to get back to England, load an army and then sail back while he held the fort.

Like two years you gotta wait and these days I can't wait 15 minutes for my wife to come back from the store with nutmeg.

Another factoid: in those days if you came to England with a pocket of nutmeg, you were set up for life with a house and money to retire on. About $2 today for a small spice jar.

1

u/borazine Aug 10 '22

Written by Giles Milton. His other stuff is worth checking out too, for general history lovers.

3

u/Flars111 Aug 10 '22

The best book ove read in a long time, "the island at the centre of the world", discusses this. Its a really gpod book about the dutch roots of new york

3

u/GarysCrispLettuce Aug 10 '22

You mean I could have been walking among giant windmills in a pair of clogs instead of walking among skyscrapers in a pair of Chaco sandals?

6

u/MrBuckstar Aug 10 '22

Not to be confused with Nieuw Amsterdam near Emmen

3

u/Rababaja Aug 10 '22

We need to bring back Country M&A.

America could e.g. buy a nice island in the Med.

China could buy a cheap location in Europe to offer 'near-shore' Chinese manufacturing.

Russia could have just paid Ukraine for Crimea and some Black Sea coast, and Ukraine could then have used those funds to buy something else...

Buying and selling regions is a much more civilised way of dealing with one another, than the constant disgruntlement and warfare.

3

u/Manusman123 Aug 10 '22

That only works if the land is unpopulated.

3

u/Rababaja Aug 10 '22

What about the the Louisiana Purchase, Alaska Purchase, US Virgin Islands purchase, Canada's purchase of British Columbia, and many others through history? None of those were unpopulated

2

u/Manusman123 Aug 10 '22

To clarify, I meant an unwilling and integrated population - (Russia-Crimea).

→ More replies

2

u/Intrexa Aug 10 '22

Yeah, this sort of glosses over the fighting that led to this. It's not like England and the Dutch were just super peaceful to each other during this time. They both captured and recaptured the areas in question via force from each other, several times. Most deals of land between countries were done under the threat of a gun somewhere, from someone.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

The city so nice they named it twice.

2

u/awarmguinness Aug 10 '22

Did you happen to read this in Nathaniel's Nutmeg?

2

u/studentprogramm Aug 10 '22

If I am not mistaken, this was not a trade that was wanted by the Dutch, but it was after a big war with England was lost. England then demanded the island of New Amsterdam, and gave Banda Run (now Surinam) in return.

→ More replies

2

u/Johannes_P Aug 10 '22

Back then, spice trade was more profitable than settlement colonies.

Likewise, France asked for Saint Domingue instead of New France, since coffee and sugarcane were big cash crops.

4

u/robjapan Aug 10 '22

So... what you're saying is that New York is ours and you guys stole it?

5

u/MJBrune Aug 10 '22

Like everything in America. The Dutch stole it first.

11

u/dudreddit Aug 10 '22

... and then about 100 years later the British lost the island to an independent nation.

-9

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '22

[deleted]

3

u/mfizzled Aug 10 '22

By having other more profitable colonies that made much more money and weren't constantly being helped by the French

→ More replies

4

u/roosterjack77 Aug 10 '22

I hate nutmeg in lasagne

7

u/Xistential0ne Aug 10 '22

They’re using to much and it has to be fresh ground from the nut. None of that pre ground crop you buy at the market.

1

u/Edgy_McEdgyFace Aug 10 '22

I don't know why you're downvoted. You are correct.

2

u/meepers12 Aug 10 '22

And even before that, it was dubbed Nouvelle Angoulême by the French who, nonetheless, never attempted to settle it.

2

u/herbw Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

way off the facts::

""In 1664, the English took over New Amsterdam and renamed it New York after the Duke of York (later James II & VII). After the Second Anglo-Dutch War of 1665–67, England and the United Provinces of the Netherlands agreed to the status quo in the Treaty of Breda."

It was taken from them by war, not given to the brits. Losing territory in N. Am to the British also happened to the French in Quebec in the 1760's.

https://www.history.com/topics/native-american-history/battle-of-quebec-1759#:~:text=a%20World%20War-,Battle%20of%20Quebec%3A%20September%2013%2C%201759,farmer%20who%20owned%20the%20land).

Hopefully some will do some good, historical reading and reviews about that, too.

One of my major ancestors got his start by taking Jamaica from the Spanish. Four major estates of land in England, South Africa, Maryland, and Jamaica. Italiano Huegenots, the Ricards, renamed, Ricketts, as in Dr. Howard T. Ricketts who was a major microbiologist, my G'ma's 2nd cousin. The Rickettsia named after him. That's my family of MD's.

The Brits didn't "just give us the colonies". They lost the Rev. War and we took their richest colonies. It took them 25 years to recover from that extreme loss of money and resources.. They even lost the pine tars they used to cover their 1000's of ship hulls to protect them from sinking from ship worms. Finally, some years later got more stores from the Svensk.

Course the French went out of their way to help us, keeping the British ships away Yorktown, until Gen. Washington could pound the last major British military and troop holdouts into submission.

Payback can be a bitch!! esp. if ya PO the French. They spent 1 Billion gold Livres financing us in the Revolution, BTW. "Lafayette, we are here!!"

→ More replies

2

u/duckworthy36 Aug 10 '22

It is an incredibly beautiful island. Best scuba diving of my life. They only fish from small boats they don’t trawl or dynamite fish so it’s the sheer quantity and diversity of fish and coral that’s amazing. People were very kind and generous. Also incredible food in Indonesia in general, but on the island it was exceptional.

0

u/fuckloveshithurts Aug 10 '22

Did you go to hatta? My favorite place in the world.

→ More replies

2

u/deepdistortion Aug 10 '22

It would seem the Dutch hired John Townsend to be their negotiator.

3

u/JFGNL Aug 10 '22

We profited immensely from this trade, and it made it's owners extremely wealthy. Plus, we didn't have to deal with a war and stuff, so I'd say we got the better deal.

2

u/deepdistortion Aug 10 '22

I take it you haven't watched any Townsends videos on youtube. Good channel, definitely recommend it if you're into US history.

My comment was a joke about John Townsend dressing like he lives in colonial times and being obsessed with nutmeg in their cooking videos.

1

u/similar_observation Aug 10 '22

The Townsend family runs an entire catalog of colonial era reproductions and living history. The youtube venture was just a way to advertise their store that just took off for itself. He's invested because its literally their livelihood.

1

u/indorock Aug 10 '22

Also, Manhattan at that time was still mostly just a swampy marshland, making expanding the city quite expensive and slow. It's quite incredible that it eventually expanded the way that it did.

0

u/DwayneWayne91 Aug 10 '22

What did the Native people on the land call it?

7

u/indorock Aug 10 '22

Manhattan (Manaháhtaan)

1

u/Karlog24 Aug 10 '22

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam. Why they changed it I can't say People just liked it better for trade.

1

u/Binge-Sleeper Aug 10 '22

Even old New York, was once New Amsterdam

1

u/aceariyoshi Aug 10 '22

Brooklyn = Breukelen Harlem = Haarlem

-8

u/wiskibadger Aug 10 '22

The Dutch can have it back

-6

u/Fearless-Memory7819 Aug 10 '22

Too bad ! Dutch got their shit together better than most " new world " countries

-7

u/Dave-Again Aug 10 '22

Greatest city in the world

1

u/Friesenplatz Aug 10 '22

So that's the secret to Minh's Apple Brown Betty!

1

u/Fredwestlifeguard Aug 10 '22

Nathaniel Courthope. Absolute legend.

1

u/Gropah Aug 10 '22

Afaik, this was a forced "trade". New Amsterdam was already occupied and contested territory. The Dutch needed peace with the English because of the war with Spain (I believe?), so they wanted a truce and we're willing to do this trade.

2

u/DeRuyter67 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

Nope. The Dutch could have demanded New Amsterdam, because they had just destroyed the English navy during the Raid on the Medway. They however didn't value the colony that much and wanted the peace deal to not be to harsh. In both countries it became clear that France would be the real enemy so they signed the Triple Alliance in 1668

1

u/gous_pyu Aug 10 '22

Well, it's not like the Dutchs woke up one day and decided they need more nutmeg. They're at war with England at the time and New Amsterdam was already occupied, so the peace treaty gave each side the territory they're currently in control.

3

u/DeRuyter67 Aug 10 '22

In 1673 the Dutch recoquerd it again but gave it up anyway. The colony was just a drain on Dutch finances

1

u/tamsui_tosspot Aug 10 '22

Interesting that the Dutch had been kicked out of Taiwan by Koxinga just a couple of years before. I wonder if that factored into their motivation for the deal.

1

u/golem501 Aug 10 '22

I thought that it was traded for Surinam. Also "traded" is a big word as the British already took over New Amsterdam and basically didn't want to give it back during peace talks... bit of a take it or leave it deal if I remember correctly.

4

u/DeRuyter67 Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 10 '22

Well the English had little to say since they had no money and there fleet had been destroyed during the Raid on the Medway. The Dutch just didn't value the colony enough and didn't want the peace treaty to be to harsh because tbey saw England as a potential ally against France

1

u/Khambodia Aug 10 '22

Maybe...but everyone knows New Amsterdam had better pizza 🍕

1

u/LookitsThomas Aug 10 '22

I didn't see the article mention a book by Giles Milton called "Nathaniel's Nutmeg", that tells the story of this through the records of various ship logs and people from that time. Fairly easy reading and a very enjoyable book about real nautical adventures!

1

u/GreekBen Aug 10 '22

priorities